SGYY - how did Liu Bei secure the service of Zhuge Liang?

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SGYY - how did Liu Bei secure the service of Zhuge Liang?

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:44 am

or was it really true that the 3 bros visited him 3 times to invite him out of his mountain?
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Re: SGYY - how did liu bei secured the service of ZGL?

Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:02 pm

According to the novel? Yes.

Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio says that Liu Bei went thrice to see him before actually managing to find him. It is not said whether Guan and Zhang went with him.
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Re: SGYY - how did liu bei secured the service of ZGL?

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:59 am

sorry, i meant in SGZ and not SGYY.

so in SGZ and SGYY is more or less the same senario? hmm... i have thot it would be much different from the actual facts.
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Re: SGYY - how did liu bei secured the service of ZGL?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:22 am

This is pretty much what the SGZ says about it
At the time the Former Lord [Liu Bei] garrisoned Xinye. Xu Shu visited him and was greatly admired by him. He said to the Former Lord: “Zhuge Kongming is a slumbering dragon. Don’t you, my general, wish to see him?” The Former Lord said: “Please bring him here.” Xu Shu said: “You can only approach this man yourself, and not impose him to come. You should respectfully visit him.” Subsequently the Former Lord went to call on Zhuge Liang and only encountered him on the third visit. The Former Lord asked him quietly: “The Han monarchy is ineffectual, wicked ministers have seized power and the emperor suffers in the elements. I have not made an appraisal of my own moral and material strength, but I wish to propagate the great righteousness throughout the Empire. However, I am short of wisdom, which is why I have suffered defeat and fallen to where I am today. Yet my ambition has not diminished. What strategy do you think I should employ?” Zhuge Liang replied:
and goes onto the Longzhoong plan

With the lack of detail, the SGYY embellishes it. Turns Zhuge Liang into poem quoting pacifists, that sort of thing.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: SGYY - how did liu bei secured the service of ZGL?

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:07 am

thanks dong zhuo for the quote.
From this, is it to say that maybe zhugeliang already knew about liu bei? or was he waiting for him to come visit him? or he knew in the first place, liu bei will eventually come to seek for his service.
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Re: SGYY - how did liu bei secured the service of ZGL?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:14 am

I would assume he would known of Liu Bei, he was a famed commander and was fairly close by.

I doubt he could have assumed or known that he would get a visit unless tipped off by Xu Shu.
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Re: SGYY - how did liu bei secured the service of ZGL?

Unread postby Aventador951 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:30 am

Dong Zhou wrote:This is pretty much what the SGZ says about it
At the time the Former Lord [Liu Bei] garrisoned Xinye. Xu Shu visited him and was greatly admired by him. He said to the Former Lord: “Zhuge Kongming is a slumbering dragon. Don’t you, my general, wish to see him?” The Former Lord said: “Please bring him here.” Xu Shu said: “You can only approach this man yourself, and not impose him to come. You should respectfully visit him.” Subsequently the Former Lord went to call on Zhuge Liang and only encountered him on the third visit. The Former Lord asked him quietly: “The Han monarchy is ineffectual, wicked ministers have seized power and the emperor suffers in the elements. I have not made an appraisal of my own moral and material strength, but I wish to propagate the great righteousness throughout the Empire. However, I am short of wisdom, which is why I have suffered defeat and fallen to where I am today. Yet my ambition has not diminished. What strategy do you think I should employ?” Zhuge Liang replied:
and goes onto the Longzhoong plan

With the lack of detail, the SGYY embellishes it. Turns Zhuge Liang into poem quoting pacifists, that sort of thing.


I think that happens in SGYY too. I think Zhuge Liang was influenced by Liu Bei's pleas or something. After all, he was known - then - to be a man of virtue and many went to his side.
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Re: SGYY - how did Liu Bei secure the service of Zhuge Liang?

Unread postby Zhou Chie » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:54 am

What really happened was that he said 'Come to the Light/Dark Side (Depends on your pov, which side these guys are on) we have CHOCOLATE COOKIES!'
Sry, I know its an unnecessary comment, but just felt compelled to add it, but I do have one question here; what was Zhuge Liang doing before Liu Bei met him? A man of his talents and experience probably had a resume a mile long to start with...
Also, why did Zhuge join Liu, this to me strikes me as a bigger question, why not join Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Sun clan or whoever else had a bigger chance than some random dude like Liu (No offense intended to him, just talking about his family tree/resume, in comparison to his rivals).
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Re: SGYY - how did Liu Bei secure the service of Zhuge Liang?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:46 am

Entire chapters have been written about this. I'm at work so can't currently back up the findings in Chinese academia, but here's the brief rundown currently IIRC:

* Whilst Liu Bei definitely approached Zhuge Liang a number of times, it's not clear how many times they talked, nor is it clear that it's only three visits

* There is a smaller school of thought that Zhuge Liang approached Liu Bei, then left for some reason, then Liu Bei found him again with the visits


In terms of Zhuge Liang's background, he was very well connected to the local talents as well as knew very well what was happening in both Jingzhou politics and the world. So he definitely would have known about Liu Bei.

As to why ZGL chose Liu Bei, I think this is quite obvious - he needed to find somebody who showed promise, who could recognise and use talent and who would take him seriously. Already established powers like Cao Cao and Sun Quan had already groups of trusted advisors. It'd be harder for ZGL to climb to the top or make a name for himself with them. ie. if ZGL joined Sun Quan he'd be less well regarded than Zhang Zhao, Zhou Yu and Lu Su at the very least, much less able to become virtual chief strategist. Similarly Cao Cao already had Xun Yu, Xun You, Cheng Yu and Jia Xu (and Guo Jia too shortly before).

This isn't an uncommon phenomena even. When I was more heavily involved in politics, during election time I would find promising but under-supported candidates and apply for roles with them, rather than flock to the big campaigns with scores of staff and organisers and hundreds of volunteers.
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Re: SGYY - how did Liu Bei secure the service of Zhuge Liang?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:28 am

Zhou Chie wrote:Sry, I know its an unnecessary comment, but just felt compelled to add it, but I do have one question here; what was Zhuge Liang doing before Liu Bei met him? A man of his talents and experience probably had a resume a mile long to start with...
.


Gentleman scholar. Studied under Sima Hui with a group of friends and that's it really. Not sure quite how literally to take "he tilled the fields" from the sgz

Given the Zhuge family history in Xu, Cao Cao was probably always out of the question. He may not have wanted to be "Zhuge Jin's brother" by going to Wu and Liu Bei put some effort into getting Liang so that, as well as what Crazed Mongoose said, may have played a part.
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