If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

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If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby Human5 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:56 am

What are your opinions on the outcome of the three kingdoms if Pang Tong did not go to and die at Fallen Pheonix?

I myself believe that Shu would have been much more powerful. Could he have saved Guan Yu's life if Pang Tong was there to advise him?
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby Mikhail » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:20 am

Two things I see happening if Shu had two great strategists than just Zhuge Liang. First off, there could have been a strategist in each province (Jing and Shu) which would have provided a better chance of Shu keeping both territories. I can see Zhuge possibly being content with being the supreme power in Jing while allowing Pang Tong to take the reins in Shu. Considering that Zhuge's famous plan rested greatly in on an attack from Jingzhou, it wouldn't be farfetched if he stayed there.

Secondly, there is a chance that Zhuge would have lived longer, assuming that his death was really caused by overexertion instead of actually having a very short lifespan. The reason being is that arguably, his workload wouldn't be as strenuous and it wouldn't have worn him out as much. With Zhuge living longer, there is no question that Shu would have been more prosperous, even if he didn't have the reins of the government like he had during Liu Shan's reign.

Lastly, going back to the first point again - assuming that Jing was never lost because a capable strategist assisted Yunchang, it would mean that Guan Yu would still be alive which means, no war of revenge for the First Ruler, possibly extending his life a bit more which could only be a good thing. It also means that a very good general in Zhang Fei would never have died either.
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby Human5 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:49 am

Mikhail wrote:It also means that a very good general in Zhang Fei would never have died either.

I believe Zhang Fei would have died sooner or later. He got killed because of his habit of mistreating the people under his command. It not like Zhang Fei would have fixed the habit anytime soon.

I do agree that Zhuge Liang would have less pressure though.
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby mrbeate » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:24 am

Human5 wrote:I believe Zhang Fei would have died sooner or later. He got killed because of his habit of mistreating the people under his command. It not like Zhang Fei would have fixed the habit anytime soon.


That is if Fa Jiang and ... forgot the other one, was in his camp.

Edit: Fan Qiang and Zhang Da. There we go.
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:51 am

i thot during guan yu was stationed @ jing, Ma Liang (or fa Zheng) was with him there?
i believe he had advised him at that time, but the problem was, whether guan yu listened to him.

If shu have Yi and Jing Zhou, their army would have at least doubled or tripled. that would means at least 250-300k soldiers. i believe that graetly outnumbered Sun Quan and maybe lost to Wei by half.

though Jing is easy to launch attack on Wei etc, it also mean it is also equally easy for any offenders to attack. Once u planned for offensive northwards against Wei, u must also ensure your rear is safe gaurd with enough soliders to defend against Wu, who might back stab u anytime.

and the problem is/was, with Jing and Yi and after u expand and conquered some plot from Wei, WU would have start to take notice of u and might not want the alliance anymore and inturn turn against u.

then the situation would have changed. its a diferent ball games then.
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby mrbeate » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:32 am

the hidden dragon wrote:i thot during guan yu was stationed @ jing, Ma Liang (or fa Zheng) was with him there?
i believe he had advised him at that time, but the problem was, whether guan yu listened to him.


Ma Liang was transferred to Yizhou, or should I say Cheng Du after either the Conquest of Yizhou or Hanzhong.
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:16 am

mrbeate wrote:
the hidden dragon wrote:i thot during guan yu was stationed @ jing, Ma Liang (or fa Zheng) was with him there?
i believe he had advised him at that time, but the problem was, whether guan yu listened to him.


Ma Liang was transferred to Yizhou, or should I say Cheng Du after either the Conquest of Yizhou or Hanzhong.


so there were not even 1 advisor with him by his side? how the hell happened? unless they really looked up to Guan Yu's capability too high until they didnt think he needed one. lol
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby memeo » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:38 am

I also had the same questions like this, let's say we create time machine then save Pang Tong back then, what will be the result :lol:

I believe Ma Liang was left in Jing to become Guan Yu military advisor? Am i wrong? I think there is Pan Jun as well, too many great peoples in Jing who is later absorbed by Wu's force.

If Pang Tong was still alive, that means Jing still left with Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei, Jiang Wan, Zhuge Liang, etc. It will be hard for Wu to attack them. I guess Jing would be well protected, no betrayal, and sneak attack from Wu's side.
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:53 pm

It's also possible that with the greatly strengthened Shu at their borders, Wu would resolve to siding with Wei in a few engagements and take Jingzhou that way. Perhaps, Lu Meng's health wouldn't have deteriorated as it did over the course of the events in taking Jing. Perhaps he'd live longer and end up taking Jing anyway and aiding Wu in snatching up some of the Wei territories bordering Wu i.e. Hefei.

It's a possibility that Pang Tong's life could also aid Wu as well in looked at the way some have already mentioned. :D
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Re: If Pang Tong Was Still Alive

Unread postby Aventador951 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:09 am

the hidden dragon wrote:
mrbeate wrote:
the hidden dragon wrote:i thot during guan yu was stationed @ jing, Ma Liang (or fa Zheng) was with him there?
i believe he had advised him at that time, but the problem was, whether guan yu listened to him.


Ma Liang was transferred to Yizhou, or should I say Cheng Du after either the Conquest of Yizhou or Hanzhong.


so there were not even 1 advisor with him by his side? how the hell happened? unless they really looked up to Guan Yu's capability too high until they didnt think he needed one. lol


I'm pretty sure there waere one or two advisors with Guan Yu. There was one called Wang Fu, whose advice would have prevented Guan Yu and Guan Ping's capture, and there was another called Zhou something.
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