Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:39 am

I seriously doubt Cao Cao outnumbered Yuan Shao given the way the camapign went, just wasn't horribly outnumbered himself. The infighting of his sons hadn't particularly started at that point but they clearly fell out after his death, they tried to kill each other after all.
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:09 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I seriously doubt Cao Cao outnumbered Yuan Shao given the way the camapign went, just wasn't horribly outnumbered himself. The infighting of his sons hadn't particularly started at that point but they clearly fell out after his death, they tried to kill each other after all.


the things abt people is, esp in war tactic, mind games etc, human like to use scare tactic to give fear factor. yuan shao might have spread the words saying that he gonna march down200k or 300k army to guan du to fight cao cao etc. so as to use this physcological factor to affect the enemy first. But of cos the actual army that went to the battle field, well, who really knows? cao cao might not know also, unless he got spies within yuan shao's camp to really count one by one. but to count one by one if really got 300k soldier, that would be like a tedious process.
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby mrbeate » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:36 pm

the hidden dragon wrote:the things abt people is, esp in war tactic, mind games etc, human like to use scare tactic to give fear factor. yuan shao might have spread the words saying that he gonna march down200k or 300k army to guan du to fight cao cao etc. so as to use this physcological factor to affect the enemy first. But of cos the actual army that went to the battle field, well, who really knows? cao cao might not know also, unless he got spies within yuan shao's camp to really count one by one. but to count one by one if really got 300k soldier, that would be like a tedious process.


Pretty sure Yuan Shao outnumbered Cao Cao, not by much just enough to say outnumbered. I don't think Cao Cao would use such a scare tactic in a major campaign like this. Less troops are a clear disadvantage, using a scare tactic is a bold and risky move that I doubt Cao Cao employed. Like Dong said about the campaign, Cao Cao was mainly on the defensive, and didn't try to engage Yuan Shao's troops often. Which is a sign that they were disadvantaged in numbers compared to Shao's forces.
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:21 am

so was really yuan shao's incompetence or indecisiveness that led to his defeat?

i read from the wiki history entry of later Han History (not sure how accurate) that yuan shao and his bro yuan shu stomped the palace and killed around 4000 eunuichs (wrong spelling) that was corrupting the palace politics. (but was later chased out by dong zhuo.
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:34 am

I think poor luck and failing leadership didn't help, neither did the loss of his best performing general Qu Yi before the war began. A number of factors really and a lot of credit must go to Cao Cao and Wei

Yuan Shao was part of those that killed the eunuchs after He Jin was murdered, Yuan Shu helped burn the gates to get into the imperial compound.
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:38 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I think poor luck and failing leadership didn't help, neither did the loss of his best performing general Qu Yi before the war began. A number of factors really and a lot of credit must go to Cao Cao and Wei

Yuan Shao was part of those that killed the eunuchs after He Jin was murdered, Yuan Shu helped burn the gates to get into the imperial compound.


so for someone who dared to stomp the palace and kill 4000 eunuchs should not be incompetent and indecisive. guess he did not have what it takes to make it to the top. and cao cao had.
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:58 pm

But the destruction of the eunuchs (and I doubt it was that many) were under different circumstances when he was a lot younger then a full scale miliatry camapign against a genius when Shao was in decline. I agree with the last line though, Yuan Shao did not have that top top ability required, even in his younger days.
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby sukotsuto » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:19 am

Not sure about the actual history, so I have the novel in mind for this:

I think it's the imperial seal that did him in. He would've become a great, reasonable leader if if weren't for his possession of the imperial seal clouding his judgement and making enemies all over the land. Had he not entertained the thought of being an emperor himself, and instead, delivered the seal to the emperor at some point, maybe he would have become an even bigger hurdle for Cao Cao to overcome (instead of just against Yuan Shao's military might, he also has to fight him politically, which is made difficult due to imperial favor).
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:36 am

In the novel it was Yuan Shu who got the seal not Shao.
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Re: Was Yuan Shao really that bad?

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:35 pm

First place excuse my english because im spanish so i expect my words can be somehow understood.
Second place, I don´t think Yuan Shao was that stupid or smartless compared to other leaders. I am a firmly Yuan Shao (´s Forces) fan, and I too have readed all the novel and historic part that is related to him. Right now, I only want to say that of all 3 kingdoms leaders, almost the three has achieved, like Yuan Shao... nothing.

What to say of Liu Bei? He was a soft poor for nothing man, able to fight, acompanied for his friends/brothers Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. Liu Bei was always on the shadows, his fair character gained the people´s hearts, but before the arrival of Zhuge Liang he had achieved nothing. The three brothers did well at Yellow Turbans, being Liu bei only a captain of a voluntary army. Later, fought Dong Zhuo under the umbrella of Gongsun Zan, so yet he received merits for the YT rebellion, he was still without a province and an ambition for one. After that he was a Cao Cao, Tao Qian and Liu Biao´s guest, so he was still in the starting point, isn´t it? He was nearly anihilated at chang ban if is not for Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun, he pledged for help to wu for help thanks again to Zhuge, and after all Zhuge Liang did for him, he simply lost control caused by the death of guan Yu and suffered a miserable defeat at Yi Ling, not listening to his best advisor, the Sleeping Dragon, and I ask, is not this the same thing Yuan Shao did with Tian Feng? Really is Liu Bei better than Yuan Shao? I don´t think so...

Let´s talk of the Sun Family... Sun Jian, one of my fav characters too... but like Ma Teng or Yuan Shu, with a little role. Yes he fought well like Liu Bei against the Yellow Turbans. He was at Hu Lao Gate too like the other 3, and Yuan Shu almost finish him with the denied supplies, but he fought bravely, even is rumored that was himself the one who killed Hua Xiong. Liu Biao attacks him in the struggle for the imperial seal that he secretly stole and not wanted to inform anybody. He barely escaped with his life. He swears revenge against Liu Biao, but, ohhh, he was dragged away to his death by a simple ruseand a few rocks. So, was really Sun Jian destined for Emperor? Was he different of Yuan Shao, being both dead?

Sun Ce, another great general and fighter, the little conqueror of Wu, aided by Zhou yu, one of the best 3k strategists he conquered Wu, but that was not enough, the little conqueror had errors too, he was alone when he was hunting, giving the chance to Liu Yong, Yan Baihu and Wang Lang´s followers to cut him down. Yes, they don´t killed him, but was aready sentenced to death by the injuries.
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