Wu and the Southern Frontier

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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby GuoBia » Tue May 31, 2011 8:54 pm

That's actually possible...

Before the Song, in recording exemplary model women, scholars chose both good women (virtuous, conduct) as well as bad women (Daji, Baosi) in order to admonish and warn against these behaviors. However, AFTER the Song, ie in the Ming onwards, they began recording ONLY the good women and leaving out in the bad.

So it makes sense that she has no biography.

In history records, I wouldn't know. I personally can't find a clear-cut pattern, but someone else might have?
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby TigerTally » Tue May 31, 2011 8:59 pm

I somewhat doubt the Ming scholars would use a foreign female "bandit" as an example for educated women. In fact, they could just exaggerate her lust and obscenity, then teach their daughters that such things were barbarian doing, and as the citizens of the middle kingdom you girls shouldn't do so ... so on and so forth.
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby GuoBia » Tue May 31, 2011 9:10 pm

No, what I mean is that before the Song, examples for women used both good and bad women. The bad women were there as an admonishment and warning, ie the pernicious and depraved chapter in lienuzhuan.

In later times, this category was dropped. They stopped including the warnings and stopped doing what you just said.
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby TigerTally » Tue May 31, 2011 9:12 pm

@GuoBia, I was responding to TooMuchBaijiu in the last post. ;)

BTW, after a brief scan I find that what traditional Chinese scholars (since Tang) cared most about Lady Trieu was neither her rebellion nor her long breasts, but the golden shoes she was wearing, because it could serve as a good material of literature ...
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Tue May 31, 2011 9:12 pm

TigerTally wrote:I somewhat doubt the Ming scholars would use a foreign female "bandit" as an example for educated women. In fact, they could just exaggerate her lust and obscenity, then teach their daughters that such things were barbarian doing, and as the citizens of the middle kingdom you girls shouldn't do so ... so on and so forth.


If it would've served Ming's interests to do so, then I am sure they would've done that. But they didn't, and instead opted to compliment her bravery and otherwise cast her as an honorable warrior. Well, okay, they called her a bandit, but Liu Xinqi's account sounds far more damning and casts Lady Trieu as more at odds with traditional Chinese mores than the Ming account.

Also, considering Sun Fin's post, which you considered a good explantion:

Sun Fin wrote:Well I guess if you are trying to win over a people by playing nice cop (bribery, concessions etc.) than you may as well honour one of their hero's as well just to show you respect their heritage.


This is certainly possible. But Ming would obviously be doing so to further Ming's interests, not the long-dead Kingdom of Wu. If they wanted to honor Lady Trieu, it must've meant Ming had (at the time) intentions of keeping up a good relationship with the Vietnamese. That said, Ming scholars would've cast Lady Trieu in a light that they would've seen as favorable.

TigerTally wrote:but the golden shoes she was wearing, because it could serve as a good material of literature ...


How do you figure? And damned if that isn't a strange thing to be interested in.
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby TigerTally » Tue May 31, 2011 9:27 pm

How do you figure? And damned if that isn't a strange thing to be interested in.


Those two earliest Chinese accounts of Lady Trieu were often quoted in books of literature collection, mostly under titles like "shoes" or "pattens". And the quotation always stopped at the golden shoes part. Obviously to some Chinese litterateurs a pair of golden shoes was interesting enough to write a story on ...

I also reviewed the Ming Wanli Gaozhoufu zhi 萬曆高州府志 account a bit. The book is some kind of official regional history compiled by the local government, and the part about Lady Trieu was from its last chapter titled yulu 餘錄 "Supplementary Records". Just as the name suggested, materials in this chapter were rather disorganized and of no common topic like in other chapters.

This is certainly possible. But Ming would obviously be doing so to further Ming's interests, not the long-dead Kingdom of Wu. If they wanted to honor Lady Trieu, it must've meant Ming had (at the time) intentions of keeping up a good relationship with the Vietnamese. That said, Ming scholars would've cast Lady Trieu in a light that they would've seen as favorable.


I don't know much about Ming history, and even less about its relation with Vietnam ... hopefully someone can explain more on these matters?
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Tue May 31, 2011 9:58 pm

TigerTally wrote:I don't know much about Ming history, and even less about its relation with Vietnam ... hopefully someone can explain more on these matters?


I know that both the Ming and the Lê Dynasty in Vietnam were in decline in the early 17th century, when the records in question were written. In fact, it was the beginning of the end for Ming; already financially exhausted from defending Korea from the Japanese, Ming itself was beginning to fall victim to attacks from the Manchus. In fact, Nurhaci would inflict a terrible defeat upon the Ming in 1619 at Sarhu.

That said, Ming had a very tenuous hold on power at this point-the last thing they needed was a war with Vietnam, even if they had internal disputes of their own. With that in mind, it seems plausible to me that Ming wanted to keep good relations with its neighbors so they could focus on the threats from Japan and Manchuria.
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby Erdrick » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:19 pm

TooMuchBaijiu wrote:...
Look, this is all stuff I've come across on Wikipedia-I haven't done any hardcore research. But frankly, other than perhaps Dr. Rafe's Generals of the South, which I fear will only have bits and pieces of what I'm looking for dispersed over ten chapters or whatever, I don't really know where to look. So I'm looking to all of you-what do you all think? Was Lady Trieu real? Was she real, minus yard-long breasts? Does anybody know anything about Lu Yin, the penis-hanging Inspector of Jiaozhou? Maybe someone knows something about the conflict and interaction between Wu and Vietnam in those days. Post away.



I am going to try and dig into this thread a little later- I've done quite a bit of research on Trieu Au or her analog, but today's being one of those days...
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:28 am

Still waiting, Erdick! :D

Anyway, while he gathers his notes, does anyone have any information regarding Wu's settlement of Hainan, or the interaction they'd had with the aboriginal peoples of Taiwan?

Also, what did happen to the aboriginal peoples of Southern China (like the Yue) during the rise of Wu? I'd hate to think they were subjected to some kind of slow, painful conquest like the aboriginal peoples of my own country, but history is history...
I don't write fanfic, but if I did it would involve Zhou Yu and Zheng He fighting to win the heart of Lai Choi San. Then I'd make them join forces to fight Ming the Merciless, who secretly works for Master Li. I'd squeeze Lu Bu in there somehow.
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Re: Wu and the Southern Frontier

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:01 am

Found some interesting text:

http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/te ... eilue.html

Excerpts:

Most foreign shipping to China during the Later Han seems to have terminated at the port of Jiaozhi in the Red River Delta, near modern Hanoi and Haiphong. Sailing around Hainan Island and up the rest of the coast of China was hazardous and uncertain, as were the straits between Formosa and the mainland.

From Jiaozhi junks could transport goods up the Red River some 330 km [205 miles] to Manhao, in what is now southern Yunnan and transported from there overland across the famous “five-foot road” to central China and the capital, Changan.

Jiaozhi seems to be the only port under Chinese control mentioned in the early literature which was reached by envoys and merchants from Da Qin (the Roman Empire). It was not until later that ports to the north such as Nan-hai began to be frequented by ships from the south and west.


The biography of Shi Xie [Shih Hsieh] who ruled Jiaozhi Circuit with his family from CE 189-226 gives us a fascinating glimpse of the wealth and trade of Jiaozhi in the early third century:

“Whenever Hsieh sent couriers to Sun Ch’üan [ruler of the Wu court at Nanking CE 222-252], they brought with them varied types of incense, fine cloth and always several thousand pearls, great cowries, porcelain, blue kingfisher feathers, tortoise shells, rhinoceros horn and elephant tusk. They also brought strange animals and curiosities, coconuts, bananas and longans. Not a year went by without the arrival of a tribute mission. Once [Shih] Yi [one of Shih Hsieh’s brothers who was in charge of a commandery] sent a tribute of several hundred horses. Ch’üan invariably sent letters greatly increasing their honours in order to keep their allegiance and make them happy.” SKC 49 (Wu 4), 11b-12a. From: Holmgren (1980), p. 75.

“Entrances and exits at his (Shih Hsieh’s) court were heralded by striking of gongs and musical stones, a correct sense of decorum was adhered to, whistles and flutes were played and often there were several hu (Westerners) burning incense beside his carriage in the street.” SKC 49 (Wu 4), 10a. From: Holmgren (1980), p. 76.


“In 190 A.D. in the reign of the Emperor Han Hsien Ti the prefect of Jih-nan in Chiao-chih returned from that country to his native place. This man originally a native scholar of the Chinese state of Lu, the modern Shan-tung, being seized with a spirit of unrest and adventure had gone to Chiao-chih where he had distinguished himself so greatly that he, a foreigner, had been raised to the dignity of prefect.

On his return, his fame as a traveller was noised abroad until it penetrated the precincts of the royal palace and reached the ears of the reigning potentate. Chih Hsieh was presently summoned to court and on his arrival this ancient explorer was received in audience with his sovereign who raised him to the ranks of the aristocracy as a Lung-t’ing Hou. After a short stay with his kinsmen Chih Hsieh the newly created Marquis Lung-t’ing went back to Jih-nan and quietly resumed his official duties. After the final collapse of the Han dynasty the state of Chiao-chih on receipt of the news resolved to send a special envoy to the court of the new Emperor, and the Marquis of Lung-t’ing was selected as the suitable man. The advent of the Marquis of Lung-t’ing at the court of Wu Ta Ti [r. 222-252 CE] bringing tribute from so distant a state was hailed as an event auguring well for the newly established royal house of Sun. The Emperor was highly gratified by this mark of attention and in commemoration of the occasion changed the name of Chiao-chih to Chiao-chou, whilst the ambassador was created a Lung-pien Hou and had bestowed on him the important and responsible post of Chiao-chou Chieh-tu-shih, or Commander-in-Chief of the imperial forces in the state of Chiao-chou.

The object of the Emperor in making these changes was evidently to impress the Annanese with a sense of his great power and authority. It was a clear indication of his desire to govern An-nan directly as a Colony, rather than as a semi-independent state. It was the thin end of the political wedge intended to deprive An-nan of its autonomy, for when the Annanese government had made Chih Hsieh Prefect of Jih-nan, they did so as a signal mark of their appreciation of his abilities and services. But when the Suzerain stepped in and placed this fortunate and enterprising immigrant above all his former Annanese colleagues and superiors, then was struck the death blow of the right of An-nan to promote or demote an official without reference to the Imperial Court. On the death of the new Viceroy his son Hui did not succeed him but was merely appointed Prefect of Chiao-chou. Time soon proved Hui’s allegiance to the reigning house of Sun to be of the slenderest kind for that official headed a revolt, presumably with the intention of possessing himself of the power his father had enjoyed. But this was not to be. The Emperor Wu Ta Ti greatly incensed at the treachery of Hui despatched Wu Tai with an expeditionary force to crush the rebellion, punish the leaders and restore order in the distant Colony. Complete success attended the expedition. Wu Tai, who previous to starting had been created Chiao Chou Tzu Shih, landed without opposition and summoned the rebellious Hui to his presence. The order was obeyed for Hui together with his five brothers presented themselves at the Imperial Headquarters where they humbly acknowledged their guilt and craving pardon for their treasonable offences, offered guarantees for future good behaviour. However, the Imperial Commander remained obdurate, and, being exceeding indignant with the treason and abject cowardice of the six brothers who piteously begged for mercy, he, after treating them with contempt and contumely ordered his young men to fall on the traitors and hack them to pieces. This act of severity caused the stern Commander to be held in great awe by all classes so that the imperial authority was quickly and firmly re-established. The reigning Emperor in order to commemorate the suppression of the revolt changed the name Chiao-chou to Wu-p’ing Chün and governed it by martial law a practice maintained by succeeding dynasties.
I don't write fanfic, but if I did it would involve Zhou Yu and Zheng He fighting to win the heart of Lai Choi San. Then I'd make them join forces to fight Ming the Merciless, who secretly works for Master Li. I'd squeeze Lu Bu in there somehow.
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