Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Who would you replace?

Guan Yu
1
5%
Zhang Fei
0
No votes
Ma Chao
11
50%
Huang Zhong
5
23%
Zhao Yun
5
23%
 
Total votes : 22

Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby KingOfWei » Fri May 13, 2011 11:29 pm

Who would you replace for Wei Yan, if so, and why?

I make this because I personally believe, instead of Zhao Yun, Wei Yan should be a 5 Tiger. I felt he was a much better general overall.
I am the only one worthy enough to walk the realm of ambition!
User avatar
KingOfWei
Academic
 
Posts: 191
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:13 am

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby Mikhail » Sat May 14, 2011 12:17 am

KingOfWei wrote:Who would you replace for Wei Yan, if so, and why?

I make this because I personally believe, instead of Zhao Yun, Wei Yan should be a 5 Tiger. I felt he was a much better general overall.


So wait...

You'd rather have Wei Yan over Zhao Yun because of he was "a much better general overall", yet you preferred Pang De over Yu Jin because he was brave? Zhao Yun, the one who proved his bravery more times than not in multiple occasions? And Yu Jin had a more decorated career than Pang De?

Yeah, probably a double standard.
Soweneul Malhaebwa (Tell me your wish).
User avatar
Mikhail
Great Sage Equaling Heaven
 
Posts: 2603
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:15 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Sat May 14, 2011 1:24 am

I think the "Five Tiger" honor, in addition to being completely fictional, is overrated in any case. The men chosen weren't necessarily great generals (Zhang Fei and Huang Zhong are the exceptions, I believe) but were honored for being five tough bastards you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley. With this in mind, Wei's Five Tigers would include Xu Chu and Dian Wei, who were rarely, if ever, field commanders. Also, the "Five Tigers" were supposedly given their titles as an honor, not as a rank or a command. Think of it like the Knights of the Round Table or something like that.

With this in mind, if I had to boot someone, it would be Huang Zhong, for the reasons Guan Yu (or was it Zhang Fei?) gave in the novel. Guan Yu and Zhang Fei served Liu Bei from the start, Zhao Yun had served for a long time and was known as unquestionably loyal and brave, and Ma Chao was a "somebody", a Lord with his own retainers and connections from a good family. Huang Zhong is the odd man out here, but in any case is superior to Wei Yan in almost every way.
I don't write fanfic, but if I did it would involve Zhou Yu and Zheng He fighting to win the heart of Lai Choi San. Then I'd make them join forces to fight Ming the Merciless, who secretly works for Master Li. I'd squeeze Lu Bu in there somehow.
User avatar
TooMuchBaijiu
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1469
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:15 am
Location: In 1939, chasing Frida Kahlo with a Gillette

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat May 14, 2011 11:30 am

I make this because I personally believe, instead of Zhao Yun, Wei Yan should be a 5 Tiger. I felt he was a much better general overall.


Really? For me, it is the other way round, Zhao Yun being far superior to Wei Yan.

I'm not entirely sure quite what defines the Five Tigers. With Wei's version, we have the forefront of the advance, last to retreat thing and arguably a no family rule. Shu's seems a mixture of rewarding Liu Bei's core generals, politics and the best general combined with the fiercest warriors. Guan Yu and Ma Chao need to be in there for political and fame reasons, as well as Guan Yu as a warrior and Ma Chao as a general, Zhang Fei was a skilled warrior and arguably Shu's best general. For me, both Zhao Yun and Huang Zhong had done more then Wei Yan at the time and over their whole careers, were still better then Wei Yan who I see as something of a liability for Shu.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14362
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sat May 14, 2011 3:45 pm

KingOfWei wrote:Who would you replace for Wei Yan, if so, and why?

I make this because I personally believe, instead of Zhao Yun, Wei Yan should be a 5 Tiger. I felt he was a much better general overall.


The only one of those five I could think of to replace with Wei Yan would be Ma Chao simply because Chao didn't anything much for Shu but i don't blame him for that because it's not like he had much of a chance. He died before Yi ling let alone the northern campaigns.

Wei Yan was decent enough in terms of skill but his behaviour after Zhuge Liang's death makes him unworthy IMO.

Why do you think that Wei Yan was a much better general than Zhao Yun? As far as i can tell, Zhao Yun had the bigger battlefield victories and he faced tougher and more numerous opponents.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby LuXunMaster102 » Sat May 14, 2011 9:00 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
I make this because I personally believe, instead of Zhao Yun, Wei Yan should be a 5 Tiger. I felt he was a much better general overall.


Really? For me, it is the other way round, Zhao Yun being far superior to Wei Yan.

I'm not entirely sure quite what defines the Five Tigers. With Wei's version, we have the forefront of the advance, last to retreat thing and arguably a no family rule. Shu's seems a mixture of rewarding Liu Bei's core generals, politics and the best general combined with the fiercest warriors. Guan Yu and Ma Chao need to be in there for political and fame reasons, as well as Guan Yu as a warrior and Ma Chao as a general, Zhang Fei was a skilled warrior and arguably Shu's best general. For me, both Zhao Yun and Huang Zhong had done more then Wei Yan at the time and over their whole careers, were still better then Wei Yan who I see as something of a liability for Shu.


Is this a novel or historical question? Historically, Zhao Yun was a non-factor in Shu and was not as valiant as the novel made him out to be. There may be a case to be made for Wei Yan replacing Zhao Yun as one of the Five Tiger Generals.
It is in times of chaos when heroes are made. -LuXunMaster102

Yuan Dynasty:

Ruler - Yuan Shao
Prime Minister - Guo Jia
Grand Commander - Zhou Yu
Alternate - Sun Jian
Viceroy - Lu Su
User avatar
LuXunMaster102
Scholar
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:39 pm
Location: Advising Fatuous Lords

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby mrbeate » Sat May 14, 2011 9:29 pm

LuXunMaster102 wrote:Is this a novel or historical question? Historically, Zhao Yun was a non-factor in Shu and was not as valiant as the novel made him out to be. There may be a case to be made for Wei Yan replacing Zhao Yun as one of the Five Tiger Generals.


Bringing back Liu Bei's family at Chang Ban, aiding in taking Yizhou, and employing an empty castle ploy on a regiment of Cao Cao's forces successfully and forcing them to retreat is not better then Wei Yan's record?

Wei Yan was full of pride and hot headed as well. Zhao Yun however was calm, and filial.
Smoke, drink, relieve my stress
User avatar
mrbeate
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1717
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:39 pm
Location: GTA

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Mon May 16, 2011 3:04 am

Zhao Yun had also been around for years and years. For the most part stuck by Liu Bei's side after joining, aside from retiring for a spell after his brother's(?) death.

I have a strong bias against Ma Chao - not all of it fair - so I'd kick him out if Wei Yan were required to be a Tiger General. But when comparing their backgrounds, it's hard to argue a case for Wei Yan over Ma Chao. And impossible over Zhao Yun.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3008
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby memeo » Wed May 18, 2011 5:07 am

Wei Yan isn't worthed to belong to the 5 tiger general, the 5 representative Shu generals are the best choice among the other generals imo for the courage, although some of them have their own weakness, but they cant be replaced by some one like wei yan..

Zhao Yun is more superior than Wei Yan and he serves longer than Wei Yan does to Liu Bei..
User avatar
memeo
Assistant
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:28 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Let's say Wei Yan was chosen to be a 5 Tiger....

Unread postby James » Thu May 19, 2011 2:38 pm

memeo wrote:Wei Yan isn't worthed to belong to the 5 tiger general, the 5 representative Shu generals are the best choice among the other generals imo for the courage, although some of them have their own weakness, but they cant be replaced by some one like wei yan..

Historically, there are some pretty dang good arguments for Wei Yan. I think some folks are far too quick to discount Zhao Yun, but I agree with others that Ma Chao is a choice which bears additional consideration.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17931
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 7 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved