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Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:30 pm
by KingOfWei
Though Yu Jin served Cao Cao longer, and was a great general, I feel that Yu Jin did not have the same sense of honor and bravery that Pang De had. Really, it's all up to personal opinion in the end, but when it comes down to my personal opinion, Yu Jin surrendering to Guan Yu is much less honorable than Pang De facing death like a man. Reminds me of Zhang Liao and Lu Bu at Xia Pi. Pang De reminds me of Zhang Liao. That sense of honor and bravery. I would replace Yu Jin with Pang De. Definitely. What would you do and why?

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:00 pm
by Yang Dayang
Yu Jin did many amazing accomplishments and had many merits, he certainly deserves his place in the Five Tigers. Pang De in the other hand, although he had an epic last stand, didn't have much merits in Cao Cao's service. Plus, if I had to take Yu Jin out, there are many who would be better than Pang De.

About Yu Jin's surrender. Guan Yu was enclosing Yu Jin in a flooded hill, Yu Jin was severly outnumbered and surrounded from every angle, the rain didn't look like it will stop and reinforcements were far so he got captured. He chose to save the lives of his soldiers and chose to live to fight another day. Pang De, wanted to die fighting. He did it out of pride, he wanted to prove his loyalty after so many Wei generals suspect he'll betray them.

What Yu Jin did was normal, not cowardly or epic. Pang De's epic stand not only made Pang De look awesome, it also made poor Yu Jin look bad. If Pang De survived, I can see Yu Jin getting a better image.

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:10 pm
by Dong Zhou
Stick with Yu Jin.

The Five Tiger thing for Wei was for the 5 that were in the foremost of the fight and the last to leave the field. Yu Jin served Wei for a long time with an exemplary record, brave and loyal, who had put the need to protect Cao Cao above his own reputation. Sure, his career does not end well and will split people as to where his duty lied, to his lord or to the seven armies that were cut off and already in defeat but he earnt that rank.

If Yu Jin lost the rank, then Pang De doesn't deserve it. Sure he was a brave and skilled officer... for other people. Fan was Pang De's only battle for Wei, there he made a stand at the cost of all his men's lives then tried to flee. He was captured and faced death bravely but he was under pressure in the way Yu Jin wasn't. Pang De was new to the kingdom and his family were in Wei, where they could easily be put to death, whereas Yu Jin's family would be safe. Whatever drove Pang De to ask for death, be it family or loyalty, it was a brave act.

Doesn't make him better then Yu Jin or a worthy replacement.

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:00 pm
by Gray Riders
I agree with Dong Zhou and Yang Dayang. Yu Jin deserved his position in the five, and Pang De wasn't with Wei long enough to be a potential claimant to the title.

Now, his record is such that, if he had joined Wei earlier or survived longer he may have one day been a candidate, but that's all in the realm of speculation.

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 5:24 pm
by Mikhail
That's silly. Pang De should be a top general because he chose death over surrendering? There's very little actual merit in that...

Zhang Liao didn't become one of Wei's best by accepting death, he become Wei's best because he earned merit and performed great deeds afterwards. That's why he's part of Wei's 5

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 11:33 pm
by KingOfWei
So if not Pang De(I still think Yu Jin should be replaced), Xiahou Yuan should take his spot. That is who I would put in Yu Jin's spot. That would be a complete group, in my opinion.

Zhang Liao
Xiahou Yuan
Zhang He
Yue Jin
Xu Huang

There really is something about Yu Jin being a coward that I do not like. He feels like a Mi Fang to me.

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 11:35 pm
by Tigger of Kai
Does Wu also have a traditional "big 5" list? I'd never heard of one for any faction except Shu. And who exactly are the 5 for Wei?

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 11:42 pm
by KingOfWei
Tigger of Kai wrote:Does Wu also have a traditional "big 5" list? I'd never heard of one for any faction except Shu. And who exactly are the 5 for Wei?


http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/groups/Five_Generals_of_Wei

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 11:42 pm
by Gray Riders
Tigger of Kai wrote:Does Wu also have a traditional "big 5" list? I'd never heard of one for any faction except Shu. And who exactly are the 5 for Wei?

Wei's Five were Yu Jin, Yue Jin, Zhang He, Xu Huang and Zhang Liao as KingOfWei's link mentions; Yu Jin's biography says they were vanguard in Cao Cao's campaign and rearguard in retreat. I've heard that the SGZ section with their biographies calls them the five best generals in the land or something along those lines.
Edit: I think I've seen Zhang Liao called the "leader" of the five similarly to Guan Yu with the tigers but I think it's an unofficial fan thought.

I've heard Sun Jian and his initial four retainers (Zu Mao, Cheng Pu, Han Dang and Huang Gai) called the "Magnificent Five" but I think it's just a fan term and not from history or the novel.

Re: Replace Yu Jin with Pang De as one of the 5 Generals?

Unread postPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 11:42 pm
by Zhuanyong
Tigger of Kai wrote:Does Wu also have a traditional "big 5" list? I'd never heard of one for any faction except Shu.


No, unless you count the Magnificent Five --

Sun Jian
Cheng Pu
Huang Gai
Zu Mao
Han Dang

And who exactly are the 5 for Wei?


Zhang Liao
Zhang He
Yu Jin
Yue Jin
Xu Huang

EDIT: That's funny. Me and Gray Riders were posting at the same time.