Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

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Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Yes
6
23%
No
11
42%
A little bit of both
9
35%
 
Total votes : 26

Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby KingOfWei » Sat May 07, 2011 12:24 am

Like the title says, does he? Does he deserve to be seen as a deity, and given the amount of credit that he is given in the SGYY, etc. Does he?
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Sat May 07, 2011 2:02 am

KingOfWei wrote:Like the title says, does he?


No

Does he deserve to be seen as a deity, and given the amount of credit that he is given in the SGYY, etc. Does he?


No
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He was an arrogant long beard whose deeds of fiction far exceeded those of the actual man. He does deserve credit for being a credible general however. It's not like he was incompetent.

He just wasn't super-musou-cause-your-head-to-explode-by-stroking-his-beard Guan Yu. Long title, eh? Well he doesn't deserve that either. :lol:

(In all honesty, I like Guan Yu very much and have stated so on a normal occasion around here so don't take my comment as something of condemnation.)
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby mrbeate » Sat May 07, 2011 3:18 am

Agreeing with ZY ( If I may refer you to as that). Guan Yu does not deserve to be a god, on the account of his accomplishments. He can be praised for his loyalty to Liu Bei, but other then that nooo.
I don't think any human being should be given a title of a god, or godlike. So a person like Guan Yu would be a long shot.
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sat May 07, 2011 9:12 am

His loyalty was amazing and it was tested in a way that went beyond most of that time. He fought one battle under Cao Cao and so quickly did he achieve fame and glory. It is pretty clear that he could have lived a much easier life under Cao Cao while still fighting and also finally be on the winning side for a change whereas under Liu Bei he was understandably losing most battles in the early days.

Guan Yu gave up the easier life under Cao Cao to return to struggling under Liu Bei and the life of a nomad. Out of loyalty he chose the harder path and made things much tougher for himself. I think that's brilliant and i respect him a lot for it. Imagine if Guan Yu had stayed with Cao Cao, would he have lost battles to the degree that he eventually did under Liu Bei? I am not so sure. I have a feeling that his military record would have been much better if he had remained with Cao, especially taking into account that Guan Yu in his only battle under Cao just charged through an army of ten thousand and killed the main enemy general. Now yes many will discredit it by calling it a raid or questioning Yan Liang's abilities blah blah blah. I still think it was damn impressive.

I think that Guan Yu shouldn't really be worshipped but i do believe that he was special and worthy of plenty of respect.
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Sat May 07, 2011 3:22 pm

Nope, he's not special.

He's a good vanguard, killed Yan Liang and that's it. I'll say he's a good fighter, but he's a bad commander and a terrible governor. He's loyal, but I saw many who are twice as loyal as he is. I understand that he wasn't incompetent, but I don't see any reason to think he's special, many were stronger, more loyal and had an impressive career with more accomplishments.
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat May 07, 2011 6:21 pm

Now yes many will discredit it by calling it a raid


I don't mean to discredit it by calling it that, I think it shows intelligence, leadership, bravery and of course, skill as a warrior.

Arguably nobody deserves to be as deified as Guan Yu was/is but far from only one who has had such an image created by culture that nobody could hope to actually live up to. Given, as far as I'm aware, that Guan Yu's rep is built on his act of loyalty more then ability then that's fair since that was a great act of loyalty though would point out there were many equally stunning acts of loyalty.

As for the other aspects, yes he doesn't deserve his rep on anything bar a warrior but in the west, we perhaps can be overly critical. I think he made a great warrior and a fine governor but struggled badly in the difficult Wu-Shu tensions over Jing and his record as a general seems... average at best.
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby Qu Hui » Sat May 07, 2011 6:33 pm

Now yes many will discredit it by calling it a raid

Uh, it was a raid; a sudden, surprise attack by Guan Yu against Yan Liang's camp directly. It's not a discredit, as raids, especially ones as daring as that, are difficult to pull off.
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Wed May 11, 2011 7:42 am

Well, Guan Gong is a culture-hero; revered in folk tradition as a god and in Tiantai Buddhism as a bodhisattva. Whether or not he deserves such treatment is, of course, a matter for those professing his godhood / sainthood to decide. I note that the legends granting him godhood / sainthood come from well after his death; from the Tang Dynasty in Tiantai's case, and from the Song Dynasty in Daoism's case. It doesn't look as though he earned credit for his deeds in life...

I'm sure this has been covered ad nauseam, Guan Yu tended to be arrogant, reckless and extreme in methods; none of these (with the possible exception of the last) are good qualities in a general or a strategist (though they might be valued in a field captain). However, he also had a strong sense of personal honour and loyalty that earned him the respect of his peers, his lords and even his enemies. I can think of far worse things to cherish than a man's loyalty to his brothers and dignified conduct toward his foes; this does not make him a saint, however.
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby ROTK-addict » Thu May 12, 2011 7:40 am

Whether he was an excellent warrior =questionable. His excellence was probably due to propaganda in ROTK novel.

But he was known for his extreme loyalty. So yeah. I think generally there are two extreme sides in terms of opinions, those that discredit him and thinks he's arrogant and those that heavily respected him as a warrior. I have a book here with me that mentioned he was only deitified during Sui dynasty . Quoting from the book "Out of respect for heroic characters, they often made a cult of them as divine beings and built temples in their memory"
Whether to say he deserved that fame.. I think it's hard to judge because him being a deity has been far too long for us to question he deserved that or not
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Re: Does Guan Yu deserve the amount of fame that he is given?

Unread postby Striga » Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:47 pm

His fighting skill was most likely very good. However, he is the warrior version of Ma Su. He was arrogant to start with, and being put in charge of Jing Zhou made it worse. This was his main fault in my opinion.

In retrospect, if you bend everything about enough, Cao Cao may have realized this fault and purposely put praise on Guan Yu for this purpose. He did say that other than himself, Liu Bei is the only other hero. He also knew of Guan Yu's extreme loyalty to Liu Bei. This meant that Guan Yu would not stay with him, so rather than outright killing him, Cao Cao used him to defeat Yuan Shao, and later Liu Bei.
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