Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

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Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby LordCBrasil » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:01 am

A lot of people is creating topics about characters, so i decided to creat one about Zhuge Liang.

I want to hear your opinions about what you think of Zhuge Liang.


For me, a brilliant strategiest.
-Sleeping Dragon: always prepared, cautious and clever, hard working... a brilliant strategist.-
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby Xu Huang fan » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:00 am

i always pictured him as kinda of both.
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:15 am

In DW terms, where does the "mere illusionist" come from? While glad to see them neuter his Chi Bi role somewhat, he is clearly a great strategist. History, he isn't either a strategist of a illusionist, novel is walking God Mode who can be a bit of a jerk. DW has found a good balance between the two Liang's but he still suffocates the other Shu advisers.
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:46 pm

It depends on how we define strategist. You could argue his advice to Liu Bei of occupying certain lands were long term strategies. Liu Bei didn't use Zhuge Liang as a battefield strategist in history but why would he? Zhuge Liang, at this time had no experience of battle when they first met so even if Zhuge Liang had the talent to be a good/very good strategist, Liu Bei naturally never used him in that role. It doesn't matter how smart or gifted Zhuge Liang may have been, in history he was never used as a battlefield strategist not necessarily because he didn't have what it took but perhaps rather because he was very young and couldn't have been greener. Even Cao Cao wouldn't have been a great strategist in Zhuge Liang's position. Cao Cao's talent for strategy would likely only have emerged after a while of fighting wars. He wouldn't have shown much strategic ability in the early days especially when he was Liang's age.
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:46 pm

When I think of "defining" Zhuge Liang it is great administrator, erratic adviser and able commander, not so much as a strategist. Lu Meng and Cao Cao, for example, I can see why someone might include the word strategist, though maybe I'm thinking of tactician there, but not so much Zhuge Liang.

I'll rephrase what I put, "History, I wouldn't call him either a strategist or a illusionist"
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby Muirghiel » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:59 pm

I would point out that creating an illusion, something which Zhuge Liang often did, requires a good deal of strategy. You have to understand how the human mind works and while Zhuge was not the only man of his time with such a command of knowledge he certainly manipulated the brains of his fellow man admirably. He understood how to make the mind think it saw something when it hadn't, and this undeniably gave him an edge on the battlefeild, and also when he took office in Liu Bei's court.
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby LordCBrasil » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:29 am

I define illusionist a man that don't uses his mind and body to create strategies and plans that come within us, like Zhuge. He just studies the wind (Chi Bi battle), the nature and other aspects to win the battle. A illusionist, on the other way, have many means. A jerk( we think of it too), the one that don't cares about the whole situation, but on winning, no mattering how many people die(i think Sima Yi is like this one),in the worst situation, the one that lies and even emplots someone better than him to give him advices and they say to the commander ( i'm not saying this happens). Well, a illusion can also be higher than strategy, like Muirghiel said.An illusion that is only called illusion if someone have good strategies.

Zhuge Liang was a illusionist, i can say. But the illusionist that surpasses the strategy.
-Sleeping Dragon: always prepared, cautious and clever, hard working... a brilliant strategist.-
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby Muirghiel » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:03 am

There were many times that Zhuge Liang did things that could be construed as "being a jerk". He sacrificed the good of the few for the many, but he's also sacrificed the good of allies for the good of Shu. And he didn't prepare Liu Bei's son as much as he could have, or prepared another successor. He did it all himself and empowered others.

He used illusion as strategy. Allegedly. All war is deception after all. But he was a strategist at the heart of things.
My head rests on the pillow. The quilt is warm and smooth. I am peaceful.
Sunshine on the door, the curtain is not yet drawn.
The morning air retains the youthful taste of spring
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby LordCBrasil » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:18 pm

(Still want more opinions!)
-Sleeping Dragon: always prepared, cautious and clever, hard working... a brilliant strategist.-
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Re: Zhuge Liang, A strategiest or a mere illusionist?

Unread postby SunXia » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:28 am

Hmm, moved to appropriate forum as it's not DW-based, more Zhuge Liang history based!!

<moved>
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