Anything Da Qiao.

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Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby Yuni Jiao » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:39 pm

I just wanted to learn more about her, Im a big fan of hers from Dynasty Warriors :) .I didnt know exactly where to post this, so I hope this is alright.I just wanted any type of information on her, i know little is know about her but anything!

-Any legends/myths you've heard, I remeber reading somewhere that there was a story she ran off with Lu Xun after Sun Ce's death, and another I think involving Sun Quan.

-Anything in the ROTTK novel would be great too, I havent read it but would like too.

-I also remeber seeing that she was very beautiful, and the post I read,(I cant remeber where)Said that she was one of four great beauties from the novel?
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:54 pm

Yuni Jiao wrote:-Any legends/myths you've heard, I remeber reading somewhere that there was a story she ran off with Lu Xun after Sun Ce's death, and another I think involving Sun Quan.


Lu Xun actually married Sun Ce's daughter.

Sun Quan gave Sun Ce’s (孫策) daughter’s hand in marriage to Lu Xun, and often sought his advice on various affairs of the realm.


The best person around the forum to ask about Da Qiao is probably GuoBia. She is awesome in this department.
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby Yuni Jiao » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:01 pm

Oh okay, I must have gotten that story/myth then mixed up. :lol: Thank you though!I will ask GuoBia.
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:18 pm

1) I know of no Da Qiao folktales. One or two involving her sister though

2)
novel
She marries, Sun Ce tells her on her deathbed "Unhappily we have to part while still in the full vigor of life. You must care for my mother. Your sister will come to see you presently, and you can ask her to tell her husband, Zhou Yu, to help my brother in all things and make my brother keep to the way I have taught him to walk in.". Zhuge Liang claims Cao Cao's pre Ci Bi advance is to get the Qiao's in a bid to fire up Zhou Yu. Cao Cao speaks of marrying them if he wins


3) No idea.
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby GuoBia » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:26 pm

My darlings, how I've missed you! <3 Hugs all around for everyone! My absence has spawned multiple stress level spikes as well as ten pages on women's poetry during the Ming-Qing period. You should have seen me lugging back texts from the library and man those things are heavy as a young girl's heart on a spring day without her fav board. :' (

Aych, I'd better write this down once and for all. XD During seminars I've been asked twice already about her and her sister. I just left that to someone else to explain the basics of women during the Han dynasty, but I'll tackle it now, just for you guys. <3

Let's just say right off the bat that she was not an important person.

First thing I'm wondering is how can anyone be a fan of Da Qiao? We don't have anything aside from her name and family background. We don't even have her name.

"Da Qiao" was not a contemporary name. But then again they generally did NOT record women's names. They were mostly known as "the wife of Huangfu Gai," "Lady Zhen," "Highest Consort Yang," "Daughter of Sun Ce," or other stuff. It's only in exceptional circumstances that we have their given name. In Cai Yan (Zhaoji-Wenji-etc), that was because she was an accomplished poet and musician. So don't worry about it.

I'm having a bit of difficulty with this. The thing is, to understand it, you need a pretty firm background in women's studies and family specifically during the Zhou and Han dynasties. (I say Zhou because it was during this period that the very concepts of the Chinese family and women, such as the yinyang, nei/wai, etc concepts were established and a woman's place and roles were written down by multiple schools, but in the end Confucianism ran up. Either way, it's important to study.) But I'll try to explain!

Anyways, we have no records on Da Qiao. All we know is that she was the daughter of a prominent landholding gentry, most likely politically active within their local community. That was probably why Sun Ce chose that family, to stabilize his ties with the new place as well as with a prominent support, Zhou Yu. I can see why they chose not to marry from one of the local families in established territory, though. And don't think that he married for her either. Looks might be a factor, but it's likely he saw her only minimally or not at all before being married, especially because she was of such a high-ranking family. There is a strict gender separation, and unmarried girls of good family most certainly did not go out to see their future men.

We know practically nothing about Da Qiao. Women are individuals and her virtues and talents IF ANY were not recorded.

Da Qiao likely remarried. This is not a recorded fact, as things such as these were not recorded. However, a lot of people mistake the Han Dynasty for like... 1000 years later, whereas in the Han Dynasty the norm was for even upperclass women to remarry. I wrote a quickie speel for you, my dears, in the women topic, I'll expand on it later. It's so short and doesn't cover anything. : ( Also, she was only married for less than a year at the most, counting from Sun Ce's conquest of the territory. Here's when I say that I think a background in family and women studies is really important. She was a young wife, probably not that established in her new married home. Come one, she was probably just fourteen or fifteen! When a widow that young stayed chaste and did not remarry people made a hoopla about it because that's basically swearing off sex with men and stuff for the rest of your life and people thought that that was kind of unnatural. She was the daughter of an upper class family with political stuff, come on! And if she had no kids, she definitely needed to remarry.
-Norm
-Social norm
-Practicality

Chaste widowhood was considered a high virtue for women. (high virtue=ideal but no one really did it, like living in a hut next to your parents' grave for years.) I mean, if anyone thinks that she somehow defied the sexual policies and norms of her time and managed to do something ridiculously extreme (moral and virtuous extreme as scholars called it) without it being noted...

We don't know if she had kids. Sun Shao is the only possibility of Sun Ce's children to have been her child, but we don't know for sure.

Essentially, although women were ideally put away from politics (but we can see clear blaring examples where they jumped right in throughout history), women as wives and mothers were the main, 'legitimate' ways that they exercised influence and power. As we can see, Da Qiao was neither: Sun Shao died in infancy, and Da Qiao certainly wasn't a wife for long enough for advise or influence Sun Ce. Another way that women had their own autonomy was through being a chaste widow, which she probably was not.

Four beauties? No, she was beautiful, but I don't recall anything about her being moreso than the other beauties. But then again, who can compare? Besides... Call me angry Chinese girl all you want but I never counted beauty as a primary trait or a qualifying factor for a woman, unless she did a de-la-va state toppler ie Baosi or Lady Yang. In that case YES her beauty was important.

The folktales are all false. Sun Ce's last words are generally believed to be to Sun Quan saying "don't f••• up my empire, dude." She was not a reason for Chibi.

I'm afraid that the only place she has any importance or character or anything is inside a DW game. In short, outside of video games or wuxia films, I'd highly recommend getting a new fansubject.

Oh my God I'm trying not to like do a TL;DR or to depend too much on basics of women's studies but for that purpose I totally skimped on it! : ( I'm trying to make this accessible to everyone, not just people in this concentration, you see. But I hope it gives you some idea? I suck at being helpful kind of, don't I? ^^" Anyways, back to cake!!
Last edited by GuoBia on Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby Ranbir » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:27 pm

First thing I'm wondering is how can anyone be a fan of Da Qiao?


Easy...Pop culture.
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby TigerTally » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:39 pm

Sorry to disappoint you, but Da Qiao along with her sister actually played a very limited role in both historical records and the fiction, so we don’t really know much about the two beauties

Luckily or not, in the Grand Dictionary of “Romance of the Three Kingdoms” 三國演義大辭典compiled by Chinese schloars Shen Bo-Jun 沈伯俊 and Tan Liang-xiao 譚良嘯, there are two folklore stories about Da Qiao.

The first is titled Da Qiao Zeng Shi大喬贈詩 ”Da Qiao presenting a poetry”. Lu Su 魯肅, after lending a large amount of provisions to Sun Jian 孫堅, wanted to get a post in the Sun office. The father of the Qiao sisters Qiao Xuan 橋玄 suggested Lu Su to remind Sun Jian of his daugthers’ engagement to Sun Ce 孫策 and Zhou Yu 周瑜, who seemed to forgot such promise. On the other hand, Sun Jian was unhappy about Qian Xuan’ s failure in establishing a confirmed date of the marriage and intended to break the vow. As Lu Xu arrived with the sisters at Jianye 建業, he said to Sun Jian that he had come as a a matchmaker for Sun Ce, yet concealing the real identity of Da Qiao. Sun Jian therefore let his wife to meet Da Qiao, and she was satisfied with having Da Qiao as her daugther-in-law. However, Sun Ce, without knowing the bride-to-be was Da Qiao, considered such arrangement a blind date by his parents and refused to follow so. Lu Xu helped Da Qiao to send out a poetry, written and embroidered on a handkerchief, in order to tell Sun Ce about her feelings and identity. Realizing the truth, Sun Ce was delighted to accept the marriage, but Sun Jian became furious and threatened to execute Lu Xu for deceiving him. As a response, Lu Xu lectured Sun Jian on the importance of keeping faith and the benefits produced by this marriage. Sun Jian, acknowledging Lu Xu’s words as well as feeling ashamed, offered him both an apology and an official post, with Da Qiao and Sun Ce finally being able to get together.

The second is titled Yan Zhi Ou 胭脂藕 “Rouge Lotus-roots”. After Sun Ce’s death, Da Qiao came back to her hometown and planted a lot of lotuses in a pond, with her sister joining her as well after Zhou Yu’s death later. Even though they did not put on any make-up, the water they used to wash their face became pink, so as the lotuses’ roots since they were soaked in such pink water. These lotus-roots were highly nutritious and sturdy, and had gained the name “Rouge Lotus-roots” due to their beautiful color. The pond is rumored to be located at the contemporary Qianshan 潛山 county.

The first story contained many historical inaccuracies and much inconsistency with the fiction, and the second was likely a propaganda created by local people living in that county. Nonetheless, they were still some interesting tales of the famous Chinese beauty.

Another thing worth mentioning was the controversy of who Da Qiao’s father was. Qiao Xuan, as suggested by the fiction, could not be a suitable candidate as he died much earlier before the Qiao sisters could have been born.
Last edited by TigerTally on Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby Ranbir » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:44 pm

Thanks TigerTally. We'll have to enjoy her with what we have.
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby GuoBia » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:51 pm

XDD Wow, thanks! I've never heard the first one before.

Let this be known that bad fanfiction has historical precedence.

The first one is completely improbably, though. Sun Jian was dead. DEAD. At that time the Qiao family probably would not have liked Sun Jian, not if they liked their own local authority! Lu Su did not come to that sort of prominence that early on. He most certainly would not have escorted the ladies. That is just... That is just really improper. : (
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Re: Anything Da Qiao.

Unread postby TigerTally » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:16 pm

This is the poem from the first story I said above.

孫郎一去人心憔
Leaving is the gentleman Sun, with one’ s heart emaciated.
苦了廬江痴情女
Suffering is the Lujiang girl, who is poorly infatuated.
繡方手帕求天相
Embroidered is a sheet of handkerchief, to ask for heaven's bension.
橫也絲來豎也絲
Its horizontals are made of silk, and its verticals are also made of silk.

The last two lines may not seem to make sense (and I should be sorry for my poor translation...), because the main message in this poetry was contained in the last character of each line: 憔女相絲 Qiao Nu Xiang Si . 憔 has the same sound Qiao with 喬, while 絲 has the same sound Si with 思. So we have 喬女相思 (Qiao’ s girl is yearning).

Of course this was some bad fan-fiction made by the earliest ROTK readers, but they did really put in some efforts. :o
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