Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

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Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby Tonto_Simfish » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:50 am

He pretty much ended losing everything (including Xiahou Yuan) to Liu Bei.

But he did relocate people from Hanzhong to Wei. Still, the roads are a total mess, so I don't think it would be possible to relocate a truly significant number of people.
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:35 am

Well, assuming the retreat was orderly, I'd say he could have relocated a sizable number of people-something that would have been sorely needed, as depopulated as China was at the time. Also, Cao absorbed Zhang Lu's forces and the Five Pecks of Rice movement, which brought him some wealth and maybe some troops as well. Of course, this probably didn't come close to covering the losses he took on the campaign in the first place.
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:42 pm

huh? which campaign? Cao Cao took Hanzhong from Zhang Lu in the first campaign. In the second campaign he wanted to save Xiahou Yuan but he couldn't make it in time, I don't think it's a "campaign".

And I thought Zhang Fei fended of Zhang He's attempts are relocating people? Or I'm I missing something here? o.o
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:05 pm

Shoot, I think you might be right. I lumped in everything Cao Cao did in the west into one campaign. I didn't know 'til just now that one of Zhang He's objectives was trying to relocate people to Hanzhong; I assumed OP was referring to a population transfer from Hanzhong.
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby Tonto_Simfish » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:36 pm

Yes precisely, - I was talking about the first campaign.

Zhang He's population to Hanzhong was effectively useless unless the people there could be transferred to Chang'An. But they had 3 years to do it.
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:18 am

He (cao cao) gain getting his ass whooped the second time (no im just joking..)
Seriously though i'd say the one thing Cao Cao gained out of the campaign was actually to see who would be holding most of the power after his death.The campaign really shows a transition away from the familiar generals of Xiahou Yuan, Cao hong, and Xiahou Dun(who was with the army) to the more importance placed on Zhang He , Guo Huai(who advised Cao Hong during the battles around LAngzhong)Xu Huang, who proved a competent duelist against Liu feng, but an unadaptable commander(as seen with wang Ping )and around Sima Yi, who advise the campaign to happen intially.Of course ZhangHe Xu Huang and Sima play a major role in the wei Kingdom after Cao Cao dies,(guo a backseat role to Sima Yi)and this is really the set of campaigns whereCao CAo and the readers and history realize that his old Wei guard simply won't carry into the era after CAo's death. Its like the transitional campaign where we see old tactics and armies and generals fade and new ones emerge(ZHuge Liang for shu)as well as the less importance of the duel as opposed to battle, after the Zhang He -Zhang Fei duel, the only major duels following in th SGYY are the Wang Shuang ones, Zhao Yun vs Han De and sons and of course the various Naman Campaign ones(Zhurong etc) and you begin to see less and less battles opening with a duel adn more and more relying on skill and strategy to win wars(im leaving out Jiang wei v Guo huai on purpose its just too far after this time frame).
Zhang he plays the main role in two or three of the Sima yi v Zhuge Liang Campaigns, Sima Yi becomes wei Cheif Commander and power holder, Xu Huang's inability to adapt gets him shot by Meng Da, and Guo Huai rises thru the ranks behind the scenes. My only q is where is Cao Zhen in all this?
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby Hyper90 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:18 am

according to his bio, cao zhen followed cao cao in fighting the Wu army during the hanzhong campaign. cao cao was facing 2 frontal attacks during this time. he had to leave xiahou yuan to guard hanzhong while himself had to face Wu personally.
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die. " Sima Yi

take a look please
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:29 am

I honestly don't know if you can look at it like this really. Cao Cao got Hanzhong and Xiahou Yuan lost it 3-4 years later. He did gain everything in his first campaign, he gained the city, Zhang Lu's surrender, his retainers, his population and his wealth. Saying that he didn't gain everything because Xiahou Yuan lost it 4 years later is like saying Liu Bei got nothing in his Jing campaign, because Guan Yu lost it eventually.

unadaptable commander(as seen with wang Ping )


lol gotta love the novel then, because Xu Huang chased Shu soldier till they jumped of a cliff in Hanzhong :lol:
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Tue May 31, 2011 10:11 am

Yang Dayang wrote:
lol gotta love the novel then, because Xu Huang chased Shu soldier till they jumped of a cliff in Hanzhong :lol:


SGZ, you mean:

Cao Cao returned to Ye and left Xu Huang and Xiahou Yuan to defend against Liu Bei. Liu Bei had sent Chen Shi to block the roads of Ma Ming Ge. Xu Huang defeated Chen Shi and sent him hiding in the mountains. The defeated army had nowhere to run and many of them jumped into the valley and died.


Except that his SGZ states that it happened twice:

When Guan Yu saw that Shizhong could not hold out any longer, he personally led 5000 men to fight, but was defeated by Xu Huang. Xu Huang took advantage of the situation and gave chase. Xu Huang charged into the encirclement and defeated them. The enemies were terrified and some drowned in the River Mian.
.

Never thought that SGYY would actually tone down the SGZ, huh?
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Re: Did Cao Cao get anything out of his Hanzhong campaign?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Tue May 31, 2011 3:31 pm

CaTigeReptile wrote:Never thought that SGYY would actually tone down the SGZ, huh?


I could. Especially if the toning down is to support Shu and bump someone that doesn't stand out for Wei or Wu.

If that were Guan Yu doing that to Xu Huang, it would have been some elaborate story on how he blew a breath and toppled 10,000 men. :lol:
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