The sons of Liu Bei, after Zhuge Liang's death

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The sons of Liu Bei, after Zhuge Liang's death

Unread postby Ieyasu Xundari » Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:42 am

Everyone here knows me as a diehard Shu and Liu Bei supporter.

However, after Zhuge Liang's death one of Liu Bei's sons had to take up the throne. I think he had 3 sons. The third i don't know anything about. One more question did Liu Bei have a duaghter?

Anyways. We know that Liu Shan was a complete dumb***, and i despise Liu Feng. But what about his third son? Does anybody know anything about him? Do you think that Liu Feng, or the third son would have done a better job? Do you think that someone else should have been ruler?
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Re: The sons of Liu Bei, after Zhuge Liang's death

Unread postby Stefanos » Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:45 am

Ieyasu Xundari wrote:Everyone here knows me as a diehard Shu and Liu Bei supporter.

However, after Zhuge Liang's death one of Liu Bei's sons had to take up the throne. I think he had 3 sons. The third i don't know anything about. One more question did Liu Bei have a duaghter?

Anyways. We know that Liu Shan was a complete dumb***, and i despise Liu Feng. But what about his third son? Does anybody know anything about him? Do you think that Liu Feng, or the third son would have done a better job? Do you think that someone else should have been ruler?


If you consider Liu Feng his 1st son then he had 4, after Liu Chan there was Liu Li and Liu Yong. Lady Wu stated this previously, Liu Li died in 244 A.D. and Liu Yong achieved some status in Luoyang under Jin.
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Unread postby Ieyasu Xundari » Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:46 am

ok, but did he have a duaghter?

And who do you think would've done a better job than Liu Shan?
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Unread postby Stefanos » Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:48 am

Ieyasu Xundari wrote:ok, but did he have a duaghter?

And who do you think would've done a better job than Liu Shan?


Not much is known about the other sons of Liu Bei. From Liu Chans actions, we can see that anybody could do a better job ruling Shu than he could. Liu Bei having a daughter? Not sure, as Lady Wu also mentioned that females names were hardly mentioned in SGYY or SGZ.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:55 am

Ieyasu Xundari wrote:ok, but did he have a duaghter?

And who do you think would've done a better job than Liu Shan?


Well considering Liu Shan was just a pup when he took the throne, I can't really see his other brothers doing a much better job considering they would be even younger.
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Unread postby Ieyasu Xundari » Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:55 am

Zhou Yu said:

Not much is known about the other sons of Liu Bei. From Liu Chans actions, we can see that anybody could do a better job ruling Shu than he could. Liu Bei having a daughter? Not sure, as Lady Wu also mentioned that females names were hardly mentioned in SGYY or SGZ.


It's unfortunet that Liu Shan got to be emperor. It's also unfortunet that women went through all those things. Like being "under" everyone else, and treated as property.

If you ask me a female emperor, would have been incredibly interesting(and cool).

I think we need Lady Wu's insight right about now. :wink:
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:57 am

From their SGZ bios, Liu Yong despised Huang Hao and became distant to Liu Chan, but not much is said about his accomplishments. There's an indication of Li Yong having a better sense of who to trust (since he despised Huang Hao), but that alone isn't much evidence that he'll be a better ruler.

There's also not much of any accomplishments mentioned for Liu Li.

At the time at Liu Bei's death, Li Yong and Liu Li were less than 10, so it might not have been such a good idea to put them on the throne. Besides, there are many examples of a stable government turning into chaos just because a second son/third son was named heir instead of the eldest son, so unless Liu Yong and Liu Li were obviously far better than Liu Chan, Liu Bei perhaps wouldn't even consider naming neither of them heir at all, since it's too big of a risk.

I don't know if Liu Bei had a daughter or not. But there would not be an option at all to name his daughter the heir. At a time of chaos such as the RTK period, it would be an extremely bad idea to make the very first precedent of passing his throne onto a daughter.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Nov 09, 2002 3:13 am

There's also no evidence of Liu Shan being stupid before he got on the throne. I mean, it's bad for Shu to be ruled by Liu Shan, but there really wasn't any other choice. Like DarkAnthem said, the other 2 options for heir were far too young, and there's no clear evidence that they had the potential to be a better ruler then. Even if one of them became ruler, the eunuchs could still run the place (assuming that Zhuge Liang insisted on his expeditions regardless), and there's no guarantee that Shu would've lasted longer.

So my conclusion is, ahem... Liu Shan's the best choice for heir (don't believe that I said that...)

PS: if there are Liu Feng supporters out there... please... not here...
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Unread postby Ieyasu Xundari » Sat Nov 09, 2002 4:09 am

What about Jiang Wei? What if he became the emperor?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Nov 09, 2002 4:12 am

Ieyasu Xundari wrote:What about Jiang Wei? What if he became the emperor?

I would think that Jiang Wei lacked the leadership/administrative abilities to be emperor, though I don't know Jiang Wei very well and those of you that do should correct me. He had little support in Chengdu if any, and had no way of legitimizing his claim to the throne. Zhuge Liang, maybe, but Jiang Wei, no.
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