Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang?

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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby LordSimaYi » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:20 pm

2 reasons
1. His benevolence ensured Shu's downfall
2. He was the reason Shu came to power.

It's a bit contradicting but basically I respected him, but I don't like him.
As for Liu Bei and Shu, I just hate the pair of them.

I'm with Wei and Sima Yi, and that will never change.
XD
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Qu Hui » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:48 pm

Sam Pednekar wrote:Lord Sima Yi why do you hate Kongmin after all he was the sage who divided china

Technically, Lu Su came up with the "divided land" strategy first.

Sam Pednekar wrote:and also he was highly favored by Liu Bei

Actually, Fa Zheng was more favored by Liu Bei. Zhuge Liang only really came into prominence after Liu Bei became Emperor in 221.

Sam Pednekar wrote:without him Liu Bei wouldn't succeed to become emperor.

Ehh, not really. Quite a few of Liu Bei's officers petitioned Liu Bei to become Emperor, and Zhuge was only one of them. And he submitted his petition with Xu Jing, Mi Zhu, Lai Gong and Huang Quan.

Sam Pednekar wrote:He was also nicknamed as sleeping dragon.

By one person, Xu Shu.

As for the topic at hand, I'd go with Sima Yi. He tricked and killed Meng Da, predicted Zhuge's death, outwitted Gongsun Yuan and ultimately seized control of the Wei government by fooling Cao Shuang's faction into thinking he wasn't a threat, where as Zhuge's plans were seen through by Cao Zhen, Hao Zhao, Guo Huai and Zhang He. Lu Xun comes in a close second to Sima Yi.
Last edited by Qu Hui on Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:17 pm

LordSimaYi wrote:2 reasons
1. His benevolence ensured Shu's downfall


I don't see how?

Sam Pednekar wrote:Lord Sima Yi why do you hate Kongmin after all he was the sage who divided china and also he was highly favored by Liu Bei without him Liu Bei wouldn't succeed to become emperor. He was also nicknamed as sleeping dragon. I'm just curious to find out why you hate him if you have grudge against him then no need to reply and don't take it seriously please.


I don't actually like the novel Zhuge Liang. Slightly too god-mode and he is a massive massive jerk, even he admits he badly behaves some times. History, I respect him quite a bit

Generally when people hate Zhuge Liang, it is either 1) loyalties elsewhere like Lord SimaYi, or 2) backlash from those discovering the histories

Qu Hui wrote:Ehh, not really. Quite a few of Liu Bei's officers petitioned Liu Bei to become Emperor, and Zhuge was only one of them. And he submitted his petition with Xu Jing, Mi Zhu, Lai Gong and Huang Quan.


I think Sam means helped Liu Bei take over Yi and so on and is referencing the novel Liang.
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Sam Pednekar » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:04 pm

Is this post based on historical characters? than what about novel characters. can we share some stories from games? I have never read a three kingdom book other than wikipedia also wiki doesn't contain much information so everything i know is about games short wiki. so i predict as Sima Yi best strategist from novel and second character Zhuge Liang as best from novel.
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby LordSimaYi » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:57 pm

Sam Pednekar wrote:Is this post based on historical characters? than what about novel characters. can we share some stories from games? I have never read a three kingdom book other than wikipedia also wiki doesn't contain much information so everything i know is about games short wiki. so i predict as Sima Yi best strategist from novel and second character Zhuge Liang as best from novel.


My story as well!
Only difference is I have read a little bit of the novel. All my three kingdoms knowledge comes from games and Wikipedia.
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:16 pm

You can just say based on novel as novel posts are perfectly fine. Probably best to mention when basing a post on the novel nowadays as assumption tends to be history

Games and wiki are more dubious a source but you can use them. If the game/wiki is wrong then more likely to get picked up and explained why it is inaccurate but hopefully you won't mind
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dtjahyadi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:40 am

Based on the Novel :
Zhuge Liang (no doubt)

Based on history :
I admit I never read the actual history book, but there have been people claiming that Zhuge Liang is only a civil officer. However the rise of Liu Bei from running for his life towards becoming the "King of Hanzhong" is a marvelous deeds of epic proportion, and surely someone smart is helping him (as he's kinda lame and losing right left center before chibi). It could be Fa Zheng, or any other names thrown, but if LGZ decided to choose Zhuge Liang and the three visits kinda happens, surely that tells you something about the actual Zhuge Liang as being a very brighter than your average strategist?

People seems to forget one thing, Lu Xun and Sima Yi have a proper nation backed with proper fighting discipline and they themselves have no other thing to do other than devising a "Battle Strategy" while Zhuge Liang have to manage from A - Z as well as having a 10 years old as his boss.

So... I'd go with Zhuge Liang, extra credit for his handicap
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dtjahyadi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:45 am

LordSimaYi wrote:2 reasons
1. His benevolence ensured Shu's downfall
2. He was the reason Shu came to power.

It's a bit contradicting but basically I respected him, but I don't like him.
As for Liu Bei and Shu, I just hate the pair of them.

I'm with Wei and Sima Yi, and that will never change.
XD


I hate Liu Bei as well, but that's what makes the Novel so beautiful.

You have an able leader who believes in himself, an able leader who's good at crying and fake cries for self gain, and a man who understand his limitations but acted with guile and depends on the right people.

While all other falled warlords are the example of bad characters that can lead to your demise (arrogant Yuan Shao, Greedy Yuans, Foul Mouthed Tian Feng, Timid minded Yuan Shu, Tryanical Dong Zhuo, Ungrateful Lubu, etc)

And IMHO, Liu Bei is good at crying, being humble, pretending to wanted to end his lifes on several occasion, but the truth is, he's just another power hungry ambitious ruler. As to why Zhuge Liang chooses him, well... probably because he's just the one ruler where he can control / shine under.... who knows..

Bottom line is, I agree, he's not the heroes of time in a way, but he is the heroes of time in a way. If that makes sense
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Qu Hui » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:56 am

Dtjahyadi wrote:However the rise of Liu Bei from running for his life towards becoming the "King of Hanzhong" is a marvelous deeds of epic proportion,

Not really? He just got lucky, mostly. Especially when it came to dealing with Sun Quan.

Dtjahyadi wrote:and surely someone smart is helping him (as he's kinda lame and losing right left center before chibi).

Zhuge Liang didn't have much to do with Liu Bei establishing power in Jingzhou historically.

Dtjahyadi wrote:It could be Fa Zheng, or any other names thrown, but if LGZ decided to choose Zhuge Liang and the three visits kinda happens, surely that tells you something about the actual Zhuge Liang as being a very brighter than your average strategist?

Or it could be that LGZ was going off of over a century's worth of cultural tradition that dictated that Zhuge Liang was one of the best strategists ever? Not to mention that historically yes, Fa Zheng was much more important to Liu Bei establishing his base of power than Zhuge Liang was and was even favored more than Zhuge.

Dtjahyadi wrote:People seems to forget one thing, Lu Xun and Sima Yi have a proper nation backed with proper fighting discipline and they themselves have no other thing to do other than devising a "Battle Strategy"

Which completely ignores that both Lu Xun and Sima Yi were very high-ranking ministers in their respective nations as well as generals, so no, strategy is not all they did.

Dtjahyadi wrote:while Zhuge Liang have to manage from A - Z

No, he didn't. He chose to manage the entire nation by himself, despite having plenty of talented civil and military officials such as Li Yan, Dong Yun, Fei Yi, Jiang Wan, Wang Ping, Liao Hua, the Zhang Yis, Zhang Ni, etc. who he could have easily delegated tasks to.

Dtjahyadi wrote:as well as having a 10 years old as his boss.

Liu Shan was 16 when Liu Bei died in 223. In addition, he was mostly detached from governmental affairs and greatly respected, so Zhuge pretty much had carte blanche to do as he pleased.

Also, Dtjahyadi, please don't double post.
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Re: Who is best strategist? Sima Yi, Lu Xun, or Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dtjahyadi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:28 am

Qu Hui wrote:
Dtjahyadi wrote:However the rise of Liu Bei from running for his life towards becoming the "King of Hanzhong" is a marvelous deeds of epic proportion,

Not really? He just got lucky, mostly. Especially when it came to dealing with Sun Quan.

Dtjahyadi wrote:and surely someone smart is helping him (as he's kinda lame and losing right left center before chibi).

Zhuge Liang didn't have much to do with Liu Bei establishing power in Jingzhou historically.

Dtjahyadi wrote:It could be Fa Zheng, or any other names thrown, but if LGZ decided to choose Zhuge Liang and the three visits kinda happens, surely that tells you something about the actual Zhuge Liang as being a very brighter than your average strategist?

Or it could be that LGZ was going off of over a century's worth of cultural tradition that dictated that Zhuge Liang was one of the best strategists ever? Not to mention that historically yes, Fa Zheng was much more important to Liu Bei establishing his base of power than Zhuge Liang was and was even favored more than Zhuge.

Dtjahyadi wrote:People seems to forget one thing, Lu Xun and Sima Yi have a proper nation backed with proper fighting discipline and they themselves have no other thing to do other than devising a "Battle Strategy"

Which completely ignores that both Lu Xun and Sima Yi were very high-ranking ministers in their respective nations as well as generals, so no, strategy is not all they did.

Dtjahyadi wrote:while Zhuge Liang have to manage from A - Z

No, he didn't. He chose to manage the entire nation by himself, despite having plenty of talented civil and military officials such as Li Yan, Dong Yun, Fei Yi, Jiang Wan, Wang Ping, Liao Hua, the Zhang Yis, Zhang Ni, etc. who he could have easily delegated tasks to.

Dtjahyadi wrote:as well as having a 10 years old as his boss.

Liu Shan was 16 when Liu Bei died in 223. In addition, he was mostly detached from governmental affairs and greatly respected, so Zhuge pretty much had carte blanche to do as he pleased.

Also, Dtjahyadi, please don't double post.


1st Sorry about the double post. I got lost on multiple tabs

2nd Like I said, I didn't read the actual history that much, so forgive me If I come out with a weak statement. But I believe we can take it that there's no "Lighting calling and wind changing" in the real history, therefore there could not have been a man like Zhuge Liang possibly alive. But apart from all that, I don't think you can simply rose to prominence enough to be the prime minister of the whole Shu Kingdom, got the support of the whole nation (CMIIW, but I don't think there's many people openly doubting his ability), trusted with so many important areas of a kingdom if he's just a simply nobody.

Without belittling Lu Xun and Sima Yi, all they did was won the battle that counts (again.. CMIIW) and again, they are the contender for everything that they have done in the history, but to claim the gulf in class are that big... i doubted it. The times of peace in the RoTK lies for a reason, and I believe if Zhuge Liang wasn't that marvel of a strategist Wu and Wei would have simply crushed them much long before it took a Ma Su blunder (again, CMIIW)
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