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Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:28 pm
by Sun Fin
Yeah definitely! You've got to draw lines somewhere! When I wrote my last list (which looking at again I didn't feel I could improve) I was decided who I thought would be the best CICs!

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Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:20 pm
by mendedties
Well then, I might as well go ahead and make a list for CiC's:

1. Lu Meng (still)
2. Deng Ai (still)
3. Sun Ce
4. Zhou Yu
5. Lu Xun
6. Cao Cao
7. Huangfu Song
8. Lu Kang
9. Xu Huang
10. Sun Jian

Something like that. Not a whole lot different. As far as ordering goes, beyond the top three or four they could be interchanged at whim, as far as I'm concerned.

See kids? History is fun! You can make lists. So many lists.

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:21 am
by Sakae Wu
mendedties wrote:I return to necro this thread with a new and improved, actually somewhat historically informed list of my own. In making it, I relied not strictly on number/quality of accomplishments, but more on my general sense of the individual's competence in reading about them. Highly subjective, obviously, but what else can you do?

The list:

1. Lu Meng
2. Deng Ai
3. Ling Tong
4. Sun Ce
5. Xu Huang
6. Lu Xun
7. Huangfu Song
8. Lu Kang
9. Sun Jian
10. Zhang Liao

So much Wu, I know!

This is pretty close to what I would come up with in my own limited knowledge of the era.

But, if I needed one general for one job I'd really go for Sun Jian, Zhang Liao or Sun Ce.
It always irked me that Sun Jian didn't get his deserved credit vs Dong Zhuo in the novel despite the numerical disadvantages and Yuan Shu cutting supplies(briefly) His success against the Turbans, and many other rebellions where others had failed are pretty impressive to me. By all accounts his men were well trained, disciplined and motivated.

What Sun Ce accomplished in his 25 years is mind boggling to me. Of course he had some top notch help, He Qi in particular maybe doesn't get enough credit. But as others have mentioned, Sun Ce's recklessness was the cause to his untimely end.

For a commander in a long campaign I'd love to have Lu Xun, Lu Meng or Deng Ai for the many reasons that have already been discussed.
(I won't pretend I'm not Wu biased^^)

Just reading through this thread makes me wonder how so many great ones, almost larger than life types could exist in the same period and same region of the world. But I guess that's why we are all fans of 3K :mrgreen:

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:43 am
by VinnyYooo
I realise this is an old thread, but I think it's refreshing to see some Wu generals get mentions in the last couple of posts (I haven't gone through all the posts - it's a long thread). OP seems to define 'generals' broadly. I'll focus more on, like, 'general' general - and also in no particular order cause ordering the top 10 of anything is difficult:

Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Sun Jian, Lu Xun, Lu Kang, Sun Ce, Zhuge Ke, Cheng Pu, Xu Sheng, Gan Ning

So yuh, this is my unbiased list.

Oh, yes and Cao Ren, Wei Yan, etc. etc. ... them people ...

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:25 am
by Sun Fin
You're right, when I created this thread I was vague - I intended it to be about Commanders in Chief. :lol:

That is a lot of Wu! There is definitely cases to be made for the first six names you list being on here. I'm not sure I'd want to justify the last 4 though - not saying they were necessarily bad commanders, just not top tier.

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:03 pm
by Han
The last four had illustrous career. Although Zhuge Ke is an outlier because he only led three campaigns. Once again bandits( won) twice against Cao Wei( 1 won, 1 loss)

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:05 am
by Sun Fin
They did, I'm not disputing that! But if I was compiling a top 10 list of commanders in chiefs for the era they wouldn't feature in my thought process. What would make you place Cheng Pu, albeit a very able sub-general above the likes of Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Zhu Jun, Zhuge Liang, Deng Ai, Zhong Hui, Yang Hu, Zhang Xiu, Huangfu Song and Xu Rong for example?

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:48 pm
by Han
Agreed. And thank god for including the bae. Personally, I dont think his top ten material, but I still feel that his above average.

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:42 pm
by Sun Fin
Sun Fin wrote:I feel the need to re-write my list and make a more informed judgement:

1) Cao Cao: I hate doing this however he has the victories to back him up as well as the raw talent. Perhaps if my man Ce had lived longer this would have been different but one only has to look at Guan Du to see the kind of audacious moves Cao Cao was capable of making. Only his early defeat to Xu Rong, the actions of Zhang Xiu and of course Chi Bi stain this man’s record.

2) Sun Ce: No hesitation here, he may have been beaten by Chen Deng but his quick conquest of Wu is a taste of the man’s talent and he is without a doubt the greatest what if of the time period. I believe if he had lived longer we would talk about him in the same way that we refer to Cao Cao now in terms of talent.

3) Deng Ai: As someone said somewhere else often when people think about the fall of Shu they look at the inadequacies of Jiang Wei and Liu Shan and I understand this, however what Deng Ai attempted was just so damn audacious that by pulling it off he deserves to be ranked as one of the greats!

4) Sun Jian: Chased Dong Zhuo out of his capital with minimal help what so ever from the rest of the coalition. Sadly he spent most of his career crushing disorganised rebellions but he proved himself to be a great commander almost whenever he took the field. He was too reckless on the battlefield but one has to remember that he wasn’t an aristocrat born to led from the rear, instead he had earned his way up the ranks by leading his men in to battle.

5) Zhou Yu: Won the most famous and arguably most significant battle of the era at Chi Bi.

6) Liu Bei: His greatest talent may well have been his shocking ability to bounce back but something about him just allowed him to keep fighting no matter what. It wasn’t until Shu that he gained what Sun Ce and Cao Cao had always had in Fa Zheng, a military advisor that genuinely knew what they were doing. Guo Jia and Lu Fan, among others, had always been present for the other two and after the emergence of Fa Zheng Liu Bei won the greatest battle of his career.

7) Lu Meng: It pains me here to do this, I dislike Lu Meng immensely but one just can’t overlook the competence and skill involved in his Jing campaign.

8) Zhang Xiu: Yes he may have had the greatest military advisor of the era helping him along but that didn’t do it for Li Jue and Guo Si, one has to listen to the advice given and his continually successful campaigns against Cao Cao, the heavyweight champion of the era is something I still find breath taking.

9) Zhang Liao: He Fei, enough said I imagine?

10) Xu Rong: He beat both Sun Jian and Cao Cao, albeit early in his career, but still the man did a great job in the circumstances.

Honourable mentions to Lu Xun, Wang Ping, Chen Deng, Cao Ren, Zhao Yun, Qu Yi amongst many others.

This is my list Han, I count Liu Bei in the top 10. My list contains a Wu bias too! I still think the only thing that stops Ce topping the list is his early death preventing him from reaching his full potential!

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:56 pm
by Han
Nice list with good reasons. Personally, I kicked Liu Bei and insert Sima Yi or Huangfu Song. But a great list nonetheless.

I would also remove Zhang Liao and go for Xu Huang. I felt that Zhang Liao had a better peak in Hefei but Xu Huang had a longer and more interesting career.

Zhang Xiu is phenomenal, but Id give his spot to Cao Ren. His defense in Jiangling and Xiangyang is amazing. He also has a longer career and had a higher rank.