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Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:05 pm
by mendedties
Dong Zhou wrote:Yes, I realize you were only asking and sorry if my post seemed argumentative/brusque. I'm glad to try to help expand knowledge as others have and still do for me though I'm hoping someone more specialized in Wu (and Sun Ce) can give a fuller explanation then I did.

We all do (or did maybe) go "well Cao Cao beat Zhang Xiu, Lu Bu and so on" and because we know of them, we have more details about them, they do seem more impressive. Only later do we start to get to know the southern figures Wu faced and through debts that I think most of us started to appreciate them.


No no, you didn't come across that way at all! I was worried that I had. I am always paranoid of coming across as harsh or hostile online. In reality, anyone who knows me could tell you it is nearly impossible to make me mad--you'd have to be doing something that I consider particularly morally reprehensible.

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:12 pm
by steven2257
My generals!!! :D
1.zhang liao
'2.guan yu
3.xu huang
4.zhao yun
5.xu sheng
6.yu jin
7.jiang wei
8.deng ai
9.zhong hui
10.liao hua

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:59 pm
by Sun Fin
Some interesting choices there Steven, any chance of an explanation?

I missed the conversation on the legend that is Bofu, I'll put down my thoughts on why he is so good when I have internets on my laptop again!

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:35 am
by wwhite93
Well my knowledge of the history in the era so far is only limited to the TV series, game, and wikipedia but my top 10 generals in no particular order are:
1. Cao Cao
2. Sima Yi
3. Zhang Liao
4. Deng Ai
5. Lu Xun
6. Lu Meng
7. Zhou Yu
8. Sun Jian
9. Liu Bei
10. Jia Xu

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:13 pm
by mendedties
I return to necro this thread with a new and improved, actually somewhat historically informed list of my own. In making it, I relied not strictly on number/quality of accomplishments, but more on my general sense of the individual's competence in reading about them. Highly subjective, obviously, but what else can you do?

The list:

1. Lu Meng
2. Deng Ai
3. Ling Tong
4. Sun Ce
5. Xu Huang
6. Lu Xun
7. Huangfu Song
8. Lu Kang
9. Sun Jian
10. Zhang Liao


So much Wu, I know! But the more I read, the more deeply impressed I become with the Southland generals. You'll notice a total lack of Shu as well, which was honestly disappointing to me, but I just couldn't justify removing anyone. However, given there were a lot of names I really wanted to mention, I went ahead and made a top 10 for each of the three kingdoms:

Wei
1. Deng Ai
2. Xu Huang
3. Zhang Liao
4. Xiahou Yuan
(Yep. A wildly successful general who demonstrated an impressive strategic mind in his campaign against Han Sui. Extremely underrated. Would probably be #11 on my top list.)
5. Yue Jin
6. Yu Jin
7. Cao Ren
8. Zhang He
(slightly overrated *gasp*)
9. Li Dian (way underrated)
10. Zang Ba

Wu
1. Lu Meng
2. Ling Tong
3. Sun Ce
4. Lu Xun
5. Lu Kang
6. Sun Jian

7. Xu Sheng (Outstanding, underrated general who would probably be #12 on my top list.)
8. He Qi
9. Gan Ning
10. Zhu Ran

(Nope, no Zhou Yu *another gasp*, but if this were a list of the greatest leaders of men, he'd be wrestling with Cao Cao for the top spot.)

Shu (Coming up with 10 worth mentioning was such a huge stretch, though I learned quite a bit about later Shu in the process.)
1. Zhao Yun (Yes, I do truly find him the most impressive of Shu.)
2. Wei Yan
3. Wang Ping
4. Zhang Fei
5. Huo Jun
6. Huang Zhong
7. Zhang Ni
8. Jiang Wei
(I don't really like the guy, but I do think he was a talented general. Unfortunately he was hopelessly outmatched, with a logistically nearly impossible goal. He gets a lot of flack for altering Wei Yan's tried-and-true defense mechanisms, but his aim was to win, not simply to not lose. I think it was probably misguided in the end, but not at all a result of incompetence. If it had worked, he'd be called a genius.)
9. Liu Bei
10. Wu Ban (One of the only other Shu generals with any notable successes.)

EDIT: Found a spot for Liu Bei on Shu's list. Replaced Cao Zhen with Zang Ba on Wei's

Ta da!

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:42 pm
by Sun Fin
Interesting, why no Cao Cao or Liu Bei?

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:03 pm
by mendedties
For Cao Cao, it's mostly due to a lack of clarity on my part. I'm uncertain in which scenarios he was actively a field general a la Zhang Liao and co. I know he acted in such capacity in his early days, but I haven't seen much for specifics on that. If you could point me in the direction of relevant information I'd be eager to add him to the list.

As for Liu Bei, well, his career as a general was disappointing at best. Not much good to say about it except he didn't give up.

EDIT: I did some re-reading on Liu Bei's early career, and realized he was involved in a few more victories than I had remembered. I still wouldn't rate him too highly, but I suppose he at least deserves a spot over Liao Hua (poor guy).

Still poking around on Cao Cao.

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:32 am
by Dong Zhou
It is safest to put Cao Caon on the top of your list on anything. Top generals, top dancers, top mystics :wink:

I do appreciate someone who has clearly put a lot of thought into this. On Jiang Wei, I do think he was a good general and he showed that in his early limited camapigns but he was a absolutely awful Cic

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:57 am
by Sun Fin
Ah, so your list isn't composed from the perspective of Commander-In-Chief style general? Therefore Cao Cao doesn't get Guan Du etc because that was in a different capacity to what you're looking for?

Re: Top 10 Generals of the period

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:24 pm
by mendedties
Dong Zhou wrote:It is safest to put Cao Caon on the top of your list on anything. Top generals, top dancers, top mystics :wink:


I don't know, that's pretty easy to check. Turn on DW3, go to opening edit, and insert him into the dancing scene. Not too impressed :| . Xu Chu and Meng Huo on the other hand...

I do appreciate someone who has clearly put a lot of thought into this. On Jiang Wei, I do think he was a good general and he showed that in his early limited camapigns but he was a absolutely awful Cic


When I decided to do this I spent an entire day off just reading about Shu generals. Started at the bigger names on Wikipedia and clicked every single name (and relevant battle) in blue. Read their articles, Googled them, pored over the available SGZ bios, and ctrl+f'ed my way through The Doctor and Fang's stuff. Was actually a little bit disappointed in the end, but I found a few names I hadn't known before.

Sun Fin wrote:Ah, so your list isn't composed from the perspective of Commander-In-Chief style general? Therefore Cao Cao doesn't get Guan Du etc because that was in a different capacity to what you're looking for?


Yeah, it's tricky. The differences between directing a campaign, acting in a strategic capacity, and leading troops on the field create some blurry lines (and are really all at least somewhat involved in making a great general)--in some individuals more than others. It probably isn't all that useful to attempt to draw those lines in the first place, but for the ease of the list I felt compelled to.