Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

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Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:15 am

Liu Shan
Liu Yong
Liu Li

All of Liu Bei's biological sons listed in order from oldest to youngest. the two younger sons have little written on their bio's, and from what i can tell from ROTK games, they seem to be a much worse choice for successor then Liu Shan. am i correct? :P
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby Lord_LuBu » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:27 am

Xia Kyoto wrote:Liu Shan
Liu Yong
Liu Li

All of Liu Bei's biological sons listed in order from oldest to youngest. the two younger sons have little written on their bio's, and from what i can tell from ROTK games, they seem to be a much worse choice for successor then Liu Shan. am i correct? :P


Not much can be worse than Liu Shan. He wasn't a bad tyrannical leader; he wasn't a leader at all.
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:32 am

Lord_LuBu wrote:
Xia Kyoto wrote:Liu Shan
Liu Yong
Liu Li

All of Liu Bei's biological sons listed in order from oldest to youngest. the two younger sons have little written on their bio's, and from what i can tell from ROTK games, they seem to be a much worse choice for successor then Liu Shan. am i correct? :P


Not much can be worse than Liu Shan. He wasn't a bad tyrannical leader; he wasn't a leader at all.


liu shans stats in ROTK is around 60

the other two sons are around 40. as for official history, not enough for their bio's
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby Lord_LuBu » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:34 am

Xia Kyoto wrote:
liu shans stats in ROTK is around 60

the other two sons are around 40. as for official history, not enough for their bio's


Maybe take the 0 off to make it more along the lines of his real stats.
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:36 am

Lord_LuBu wrote:
Xia Kyoto wrote:
liu shans stats in ROTK is around 60

the other two sons are around 40. as for official history, not enough for their bio's


Maybe take the 0 off to make it more along the lines of his real stats.


for the newer versions true, im playing #7 though
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby Masatog » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:47 am

In the history, Liu Chan is actually a good ruler, just not as good as the strict historical Liu Bei.
It's the novel that makes the entire blame of Shu's decline to Liu Chan and RTK's works follow the novel therefore, putting him as the lowly, unwanted officer.

By guess is that Luo Guanzhong wanted to show the difference between Liu Bei and Liu Chan - how a tiny bit of personal skill can affect a whole kingdom.
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:44 am

Lord_LuBu wrote:
Not much can be worse than Liu Shan. He wasn't a bad tyrannical leader; he wasn't a leader at all.


30 years of prosperity, a good reputation and well liked? Yeah, what a complete disaster :P

He wasn't the worst choice certainly, I would argue he was the best choice at the time. Liu Shan was well educated and had just handled a fairly serious crises (an anti Zhuge Liang revolt), he had worked with Liang and other senior ministers for at least a year without there being problems. As a ruler, Liu Shan provided stability and his lazy but kind style of ruler-ship allowed Shu to flourish for a time. He was the wrong man to deal with the last ten years certainly but Shu needs to get there first

Who are the other options:

Liu Feng: A disaster as a governor, losing Shu the city and a fair few officers. Would provide an energetic ruler-ship but his status would have been challenged, ie civil war, become a headache for Zhuge Liang and quite probably alienated the court.

Zhuge Liang or other outsider: Civil war, the destruction of their political justification, mass invasion and Shu dies very fast.

The other Liu's (with Liu Shan killed presumably): Appointing children as rulers when the court has some factions in it? Hello Regency disaster. There is little to suggest they would have done better had they been adults but then, they didn't get the opportunity I guess.

So, there were no better options then Liu Shan
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:28 pm

Liu Shan didnt cause those years of prosperity, Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Dong Jue and Zhuge Liang did, Jiang Wei and Huang Hao ruined it all and Liu Shan couldnt of done anything to stop it.
Agreed, Liu Feng was adopted, somebody would of used one of the sons as a puppet to dethrone Feng.
I honestly dont know who the others are though.
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:42 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Lord_LuBu wrote:
Not much can be worse than Liu Shan. He wasn't a bad tyrannical leader; he wasn't a leader at all.


30 years of prosperity, a good reputation and well liked? Yeah, what a complete disaster :P

He wasn't the worst choice certainly, I would argue he was the best choice at the time. Liu Shan was well educated and had just handled a fairly serious crises (an anti Zhuge Liang revolt), he had worked with Liang and other senior ministers for at least a year without there being problems. As a ruler, Liu Shan provided stability and his lazy but kind style of ruler-ship allowed Shu to flourish for a time. He was the wrong man to deal with the last ten years certainly but Shu needs to get there first

Who are the other options:

Liu Feng: A disaster as a governor, losing Shu the city and a fair few officers. Would provide an energetic ruler-ship but his status would have been challenged, ie civil war, become a headache for Zhuge Liang and quite probably alienated the court.

Zhuge Liang or other outsider: Civil war, the destruction of their political justification, mass invasion and Shu dies very fast.

The other Liu's (with Liu Shan killed presumably): Appointing children as rulers when the court has some factions in it? Hello Regency disaster. There is little to suggest they would have done better had they been adults but then, they didn't get the opportunity I guess.

So, there were no better options then Liu Shan




Liu Yong, Liu Chan's half brother, and Liu Bei's second son was around 14, when Liu Chan was 17 and took the throne.

But even so, i dislike the idea of Liu Chan choosing his first son (naturally) even though his first son was pretty weak, over Liu Ch(E)n, to me, one of the last loyal/skilled Liu's and certainly better to me then Liu Chan. He even executed himself and his family because he didnt want to bring shame to Shu-Han by surrendering. Sounds like a Gongsun zan to me.

AND, he spoke up against his father in court, i forget if he asked him not to surrender, or to raise arms against Wei. But Liu Chan didnt want to hear it and threw Liu Chen out of the court. a shame
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Re: Liu Shan, not the worst choice for successor?

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:11 pm

Liu Yong, Liu Chan's half brother, and Liu Bei's second son was around 14, when Liu Chan was 17 and took the throne.

But even so, i dislike the idea of Liu Chan choosing his first son (naturally) even though his first son was pretty weak, over Liu Ch(E)n, to me, one of the last loyal/skilled Liu's and certainly better to me then Liu Chan. He even executed himself and his family because he didnt want to bring shame to Shu-Han by surrendering. Sounds like a Gongsun zan to me.

AND, he spoke up against his father in court, i forget if he asked him not to surrender, or to raise arms against Wei. But Liu Chan didnt want to hear it and threw Liu Chen out of the court. a shame

Liu Shan failed to recgognize talent, even when it was his own son, he failed in preserving Shu-Han, but i doubt his brothers would of done better
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