Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Maria's Gringo » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:21 am

Probibly old news by now but speaking of Mengda, did y'all hear that they found his actual tomb. Not sure again if it applies to this thread, but thought it was pretty freaking sweet.
Maria's Gringo
Tyro
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:12 am

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:08 am

The Xu Province Massacres happened. Though might I add the other warlords committed their own share of massacres, for example Sun Quan and Xiahou.

The murder of Lu Boshe's family definitely did happen, in several of PSZ's annotations. However It was in a different context and Cao Cao didn't kill Lu Boshe himself (in two sources he mistakenly killed a few people in the family when he thought they were going to kill him, and these could have easily been servants etc. and then fled once he realized his mistakes, OR according to another source, the servants tried to rob him and he was acting in self defense).

He killed Hua Tuo for a crime which I don't think deserved death.

Towards the end he may have killed a lot of political opposition such as Xun Yu who arguably didn't deserve it. Like we're not talking about people like Kong Rong who were pretty much asking to have their heads lopped off.



But it's not like Liu "I kill people for being wittier than me" Xuande was better on the killing people front. On the massacre front sure, but all the warlords killed people for very dubious reasons.


ps. Cao Cao's style name is Mengde, not Mengda
User avatar
Crazedmongoose
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am
Location: Sydney, Aus

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:38 am

He killed Hua Tuo for a crime which I don't think deserved death.

Towards the end he may have killed a lot of political opposition such as Xun Yu who arguably didn't deserve it. Like we're not talking about people like Kong Rong who were pretty much asking to have their heads lopped off


Ignoring repeated imperial orders? That is a death offence, perhaps a tad harsh but Hua Tuo shouldn't have been so whiny :wink:

As much as Xun Yu's death is a sad one, I don't think that is one I would call a bad one. Utterly ruthless? Yes but he spent those years trying to secure his, or perhaps his future heir's, grip on the capital. Having Han loyalists around, as Xun Yu revealed himself to be, was a risk that he wasn't going to take. He did execute some people wrongly in that time though
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17036
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:50 am

Okay I thought he killed Hua Tuo for decieving him? But wasn't it for the purposes of visiting his family? I don't know, it seemed kind of harsh. But yeah, deceiving the Emperor (or the Emperor through Cao Cao) and disobeying imperial edicts is definitely death.

I think, in the situation he was exposed to, Cao Cao didn't act more harshly or cruelly or less reasonably than any of the other warlords and heroes of the time. He certainly wasn't worse than average like Dong Zhuo or Yuan Shu were. He was flawed, he made mistakes. But if there's any point to the story of Cao Cao, it's that, he's a human being. An incredibly talented and extraordinary human being, but a human being none the less. He is arguably more human than many of the great Emperors and heroes in Chinese history, because he didn't have history view him in a rose tinted glass, so we saw his triumphs and failures in equal measure and through that his humanity.

The classic Chinese phrase comes to mind, "we are not gods or saints, who has no regrets?"
User avatar
Crazedmongoose
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am
Location: Sydney, Aus

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:11 am

Thing is, Cao Cao thought the constant refusals were over a sick family member so Cao Cao sent gifts to help. Turned out Hua Tuo was having a sulky fit because being a doctor was "beneath" him

rest I agree with
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17036
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:14 am

Ooooohhh

Well then fair enough. Execute away.


I think it's interesting that these people who historical records indicate as being quite in the wrong or at least not remotely likable become heroes in the anti-Cao Cao aftermath. Tao Qian, Mi Heng, Ma Teng, Hua Tuo, Zuo Ci etc.
User avatar
Crazedmongoose
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am
Location: Sydney, Aus

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:01 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:I think, in the situation he was exposed to, Cao Cao didn't act more harshly or cruelly or less reasonably than any of the other warlords and heroes of the time. He certainly wasn't worse than average like Dong Zhuo or Yuan Shu were. He was flawed, he made mistakes. But if there's any point to the story of Cao Cao, it's that, he's a human being. An incredibly talented and extraordinary human being, but a human being none the less. He is arguably more human than many of the great Emperors and heroes in Chinese history, because he didn't have history view him in a rose tinted glass, so we saw his triumphs and failures in equal measure and through that his humanity.

The classic Chinese phrase comes to mind, "we are not gods or saints, who has no regrets?"


A very sensible approach to the history, I believe. :)

By the way, now you've got me curious - what was the incident in which Liu Bei killed a guy for being wittier than him?
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3855
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:12 pm

Well, that was an exaggeration. It was when the guy joked about him having no facial hair. That's a pretty damn silly reason to kill someone. Cao Cao's ego was never that fragile. Look how he tolerated Mi Heng.
User avatar
Crazedmongoose
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am
Location: Sydney, Aus

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:34 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:Well, that was an exaggeration. It was when the guy joked about him having no facial hair. That's a pretty damn silly reason to kill someone. Cao Cao's ego was never that fragile. Look how he tolerated Mi Heng.


It was Zhang Yu I think. Liu Bei also started it by insulting the guy's hair in the first place
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17036
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:07 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:I think it's interesting that these people who historical records indicate as being quite in the wrong or at least not remotely likable become heroes in the anti-Cao Cao aftermath. Tao Qian, Mi Heng, Ma Teng, Hua Tuo, Zuo Ci etc.


I don't think I'd ever of discribed Mi Heng as likeable.
Have a question about a book or academic article before you buy it? Maybe I have it!
Check out my library here for a list of Chinese history resources I have on hand!
User avatar
Sun Fin
Librarian of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 7752
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: Vicar Factory

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 8 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron