Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:24 pm

In the west: Cao Cao might be popular amongst those who use the boards but we're in the minority. Most will just read RotK and settle on Liu Bei like most have done throughout history. Maybe DW will win a few over to Wei and Wu (w00t for Sun Ce) but I'd still bet on Liu Bei being the most popular of the three on the West.
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:10 am

Sun Fin wrote:In the west: Cao Cao might be popular amongst those who use the boards but we're in the minority. Most will just read RotK and settle on Liu Bei like most have done throughout history. Maybe DW will win a few over to Wei and Wu (w00t for Sun Ce) but I'd still bet on Liu Bei being the most popular of the three on the West.


Perhaps. But I actually became a Ts'aoist as a result of reading RotK and discussing it with my Chinese professor. Her perspective was that both Cao Cao and Liu Bei were attracted and tempted by the power of the emperor, but that Liu Bei was never tested in that temptation in the same way Cao Cao was. That kind of changed the way I read the novel...
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Cao Hong 14 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:52 am

ya most people read the novel or play the games and say liu bei seems like the good guy and he is so nice, etc. But really cao cao is not a tyrant or a villain any more than liu bei. he was an able and ambitious leader.
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:13 am

WeiWenDi wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:In the west: Cao Cao might be popular amongst those who use the boards but we're in the minority. Most will just read RotK and settle on Liu Bei like most have done throughout history. Maybe DW will win a few over to Wei and Wu (w00t for Sun Ce) but I'd still bet on Liu Bei being the most popular of the three on the West.


Perhaps. But I actually became a Ts'aoist as a result of reading RotK and discussing it with my Chinese professor. Her perspective was that both Cao Cao and Liu Bei were attracted and tempted by the power of the emperor, but that Liu Bei was never tested in that temptation in the same way Cao Cao was. That kind of changed the way I read the novel...


But again it was an outside influnce not just game & book that changed your opinion. Not many people have a wise proffesor to talk it over with.
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:13 am

Cao Hong 14 wrote:ya most people read the novel or play the games and say liu bei seems like the good guy and he is so nice, etc. But really cao cao is not a tyrant or a villain any more than liu bei. he was an able and ambitious leader.


Given Cao Cao's murders and massacres, he is still arguably a villain
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:29 am

He's done both more bad and more good than Liu Bei, but he was also in a position to do more bad and more good.

I think at the end of the day, through pretty much most conventional measures of ethics except for some more radical utilitarian or progressive readings, Liu Bei is relatively better than Cao Cao even in history.

It does not however make me like Liu Bei anywhere near as much as I like Cao Cao. :wink:
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:36 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:He's done both more bad and more good than Liu Bei, but he was also in a position to do more bad and more good.

I think at the end of the day, through pretty much most conventional measures of ethics except for some more radical utilitarian or progressive readings, Liu Bei is relatively better than Cao Cao even in history.

It does not however make me like Liu Bei anywhere near as much as I like Cao Cao. :wink:


I think that sums it up for me.

There is something I rather like about Cao Cao, maybe it is that streak of brilliance or his love life
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:09 am

Sun Fin wrote:
WeiWenDi wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:In the west: Cao Cao might be popular amongst those who use the boards but we're in the minority. Most will just read RotK and settle on Liu Bei like most have done throughout history. Maybe DW will win a few over to Wei and Wu (w00t for Sun Ce) but I'd still bet on Liu Bei being the most popular of the three on the West.


Perhaps. But I actually became a Ts'aoist as a result of reading RotK and discussing it with my Chinese professor. Her perspective was that both Cao Cao and Liu Bei were attracted and tempted by the power of the emperor, but that Liu Bei was never tested in that temptation in the same way Cao Cao was. That kind of changed the way I read the novel...


But again it was an outside influnce not just game & book that changed your opinion. Not many people have a wise proffesor to talk it over with.


:mrgreen: True enough.

I think the DW games do have a pretty significant pro-Shu Han bias, and RotK certainly does, having been written and revised in a time when Cao Wei was in some deep disapprobation among the Confucian intelligentsia. The situation was certainly worsened, though, after Mao Zonggang redacted the text with a significant political slant in favour of Shu Han (much of the praise of Cao Cao and his officials in the original having been removed).

Dong Zhou wrote:Given Cao Cao's murders and massacres, he is still arguably a villain


Which murders and massacres were these (outside SGYY)? For example, Cao Cao's murder of Lv Boshe wasn't in the ZZTJ, if I'm recalling right.
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Gray Riders » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:44 am

WeiWenDi wrote:Which murders and massacres were these (outside SGYY)? For example, Cao Cao's murder of Lv Boshe wasn't in the ZZTJ, if I'm recalling right.


The Xu province massacre is mentioned in "To Establish Peace". The first volume, part three.
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Re: Cao Cao Favorable Editions of Romance of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:13 am

Gray Riders wrote:
WeiWenDi wrote:Which murders and massacres were these (outside SGYY)? For example, Cao Cao's murder of Lv Boshe wasn't in the ZZTJ, if I'm recalling right.


The Xu province massacre is mentioned in "To Establish Peace". The first volume, part three.


Okay, found it - Chuping 4L:

Zizhi Tongjian, 'To Establish Peace' Chuping 4L wrote:In the autumn, Cao Cao led his men to attack Tao Qian, stormed more
than ten cities, and came to Pengcheng. There was a great battle, Tao
Qian's army was defeated and he fled to take refuge in Tan.
Before this, when the capital [Chang'an] and Luoyang had suffered the
disorders of Dong Zhuo the people had migrated to the east, and many had
come to Xu. As Cao Cao came up, he trapped and killed hundreds of
thousands of men and women along the Si River, so many the water did not
flow.
Cao Cao was unsuccessful in his attack on Tan, but he stormed and
massacred Qulü, Suiling, and Xiaqiu. The cities were laid waste, no-one was
left alive, and even the chickens and dogs were gone.


It does seem quite excessive, even given the brutal standards of this anarchic time - logistically speaking I have difficulty believing Cao Cao's armies were capable of slaughter on the scale described here, though I have no doubt that the events are accurate even if the numbers may be exaggerated.

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