Crazedmongoose wrote:I've never heard any one criticize Zhao Yun in terms of character. Even in history he's one of the few virtuous generals in Liu Bei's faction.
There is no mistake that in terms of the novel and cultural depiction of Zhao Yun, he has been the most positively exaggerated character of the era save maybe Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu.
Elitemsh wrote:Also, I find that historically he was a better general and leader than he is portrayed as in the novel. In the novel he is tricked by Xiahou Mao (historically unimpressive) of Wei and falls into an ambush later in life. In history this didn’t take place and Zhao Yun’s only defeat against Cao Zhen is an understandable one and is actually one of his best achievements.
Qu Hui wrote:Actually it is not. Zhao Yun made a tactical misstep in attacking Qishan with troops that were lesser in number and inferior to Cao Zhen’s, was defeated and forced to retreat. Also, it is his only defeat (which, if I recall correctly, it was not, he was later defeated alongside Deng Zhi at Jigu) because it is the only time (again, unsure) he was in command of his own detachment of troops.
Elitemsh wrote:Let us recall the point of Zhao Yun’s battle with Cao Zhen. Zhuge Liang announced he was marching through Jie Gorge when in fact his main army was to attack a different area. Wei was fooled by the ruse and sent their strongest army under Cao Zhen to Jie Gorge. Zhao Yun was chosen by Zhuge Liang to be a decoy force and to distract Cao Zhen for a time. Since he was a decoy force Yun was obviously given inferior numbers to Zhuge’s main army and of course vastly inferior to Cao Zhen who was leading Wei’s army.
Elitemsh wrote:Anyway if Zhao Yun didn’t attack then he would not have been able to distract Cao Zhen for long enough as he assigned to do and he would be disobeying orders. I don’t know how you can say that Zhao Yun made a tactical misstep. There doesn’t seem to be enough evidence to support that conclusion. As far as we know he likely had to attack when he did due to the nature of his mission. He had to initiate a battle.
Zhao Yun's SGZ wrote:During the battle, Zhao Yun took the lead in the army and ordered for an attack on Qishan. The attack was futile and they were forced to retreat.
Elitemsh wrote:That was the whole point as far as I can tell. As for the specific area he attacked and whether this was a mistake, there doesn’t seem to be enough evidence to affirm this at all. The bottom line is that Zhao Yun succeeded in distracting Cao Zhen just as he was meant to and with minimal loss. He was demoted simply because that was military law and the battle was officially a defeat. Zhao Yun's perfomance was at least good under the cirumstances and Zhuge Liang's reaction stands as proof of this.
Elitemsh wrote:The defeat alongside Deng Zhi was the above battle. They were one and the same. So he was not beaten more than once. Also, it was not the only time Zhao Yun as in charge of his own troops. When he attacked Shu, he led his own troops along a separate route. He was given independent command when at all possible.
Elitemsh: Wei was fooled by the ruse and sent their strongest army under Cao Zhen to Jie Gorge. Zhao Yun was chosen by Zhuge Liang to be a decoy force and to distract Cao Zhen for a time
Qu Hui:Thus, Zhao Yun took the inititaive and attacked Qishan, where Zhuge was supposed to be attacking, by himself. It makes no tactical sense for a decoy unit to engage the target that the main force is attacking.
Qu Hui:This is incorrect. There are no battles mentioned in any historical record involving Zhao Yun in Shu. So while yes, he may have had indipendant command, he wasn't actually facing any opponents and thus isn't an accurate measure of his leadership abilities.
Even in history he's one of the few virtuous generals in Liu Bei's faction.
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