Was Lu Meng right?

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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Kongde » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:43 am

I won't correct you out, since everyone has their own opinion, discussion is supposed to make each other see the matter in a different point of view. So im going to share my own view.

This is very true! However, I believe some things are more solid fact than others and can be confirmed with most certainty. I am by no means an expert in this topic and still have a lot of learning to go, but I've been into the Three Kingdoms time period since I was a teenager. However, most of that time I spent believing the Luo Guanzhong's novel to be mostly truth. I didn't realize just how far from the truth it can be in many instances and how pro-Shu it actually is. I knew it to contain some false information and I thought I could deduce that without other sources. Oh how wrong I was! So my information could very well be from SGYY rather than SGZ. I've only recently began reading the SGZ officer bios.

There's plenty of time to wait it out until Shu and Wei exhausted themselves. However, Guan Yu's raid on Wu's depot forces their hand. See, if you're bound by alliance treaty, you wouldn't attack your ally's land, raiding their supply just to maintain yours, that's just a breach of the treaty.


Fair enough point, I honestly had forgotten about that. I believe you may have just changed my mind with that comment alone. That certainly changes thing when you invade territory rather than simply holding onto territory you promise to give back and didn't (which was already bad enough). However, the possibility of simply holding Guan Yu captive still wouldn't be a bad option, because killing him would undoubtedly mean war for them.

Jingzhou is rich with resources, vast population and also its strategic position. Everyone want such places to be theirs. Zhuge Liang's groundwork strategy was based on those area. It's not like Liu Bei don't want to give those places to Sun Quan, it's because of ZGL's strategy. To make an attack on both fronts (Hanzhong and Jingzhou) you need an enormous of resources, you can't just rely on Yizhou alone to support such astronomical resources, so you also needed Jingzhou's resource as well. Liu Bei was trying to play on time so he could gather resource to make such attack.
Bei's word is something needed to be mindful for, if he need such enormous resource, he shouldn't make such promise to Quan. I think its also wise to smooth it out like you said, Quan is a type who can be reasoned with, in fact, he also the one who initiate a move to improve those relation, such as married Bei with his sister. I don't know whether there was any hidden motive behind it, but those action were clear that Quan wanted for their alliance to lasts long.


After hearing your words and thinking it over, it does seem as though Wu having Jing would be better for Wu than for Shu to have Jing and build up their power and maintain the Wu-Shu alliance. Because if they get stronger from Jing, then they might not need Shu as much, if at all. However, the main justification for that would be if Jing would be the difference between standing a chance against Wei or not. For why would Wu want Shu to build up their forces unless they truly trust them? I think Quan might have let Shu keep Jing momentarily to build their forces had Liu Bei approached it differently and he had more trust in his ally. But the tensions were too great, and Bei broke his word, and Guan Yunchang raided Wu. How could they allow them to continue building their forces?

Welcome to the forum Kongde

I do imagine Wu expected a miliatry response but calculated they would be to beat that, keeping Jing, ensuring senior partner of alliance status in the aftermath and that in the decades to come, they would feel other opportunities would come their way to expand against Wei. They survived seventy one years after taking Jing, their decline was more due to Sun Deng's death in 241 ad the events that followed rather then Jing.

Lu Meng's calculation was that one final attack on Hefei would produce the same results as before, defeat and Wei would last even if they lost Fan.


Thanks :) And this is very true. I'm very uninformed when it comes to the post-Liu Bei death, so you'll have to forgive me on that front. I'm starting to learn more about post-223 AD. I know a little about the time period, but not a whole lot so I'm working to fill those gaps in!
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:40 am

I feel the balance here is getting a bit "if only Liu Bei" had (and Guan Yu's raid changes nothing, Wu was already about to invade), neither side behaved well or with honesty leading up to 219, there were things Wu could have done to dampen tensions and they did invade twice. What was promised and so on isn't always agreed upon by the two kingdoms records if I recall rightly.

Thanks :) And this is very true. I'm very uninformed when it comes to the post-Liu Bei death, so you'll have to forgive me on that front. I'm starting to learn more about post-223 AD. I know a little about the time period, but not a whole lot so I'm working to fill those gaps in!


That is how it is for a lot of people Kongde so don't worry. Due to novel and games, a lot of people's interests started at the early era, a lot of the translated works tended to be for early or mid era while the main historian De Crespigny focus is pre 220 so sources for that era has only really grown in very recent years and some here or tumblr specalize more towards latter era.

Feel free to ask questions
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:21 pm

Kongde wrote:Thanks :) And this is very true. I'm very uninformed when it comes to the post-Liu Bei death, so you'll have to forgive me on that front. I'm starting to learn more about post-223 AD. I know a little about the time period, but not a whole lot so I'm working to fill those gaps in!

Once you get into Imperial and Late Wu, you are going to love it. Zhuge Ke, Lu Ju, Zhu Yi, Shi Ji, Lu Kang, Lu Kai, Ding Feng, Zhuge Jing... I always encourage folks to read on. Don't stop because Cao Cao and Liu Bei are dead. You're just getting to the real meat of the era. Keep on keeping on!
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Kongde » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:30 am

That is how it is for a lot of people Kongde so don't worry. Due to novel and games, a lot of people's interests started at the early era, a lot of the translated works tended to be for early or mid era while the main historian De Crespigny focus is pre 220 so sources for that era has only really grown in very recent years and some here or tumblr specalize more towards latter era.

Feel free to ask questions


I've got many, but I fear this is an improper thread to ask such questions! I've got tons of questions, but first I'll have to do some reading and if they aren't answered then, I'll ask.

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:Once you get into Imperial and Late Wu, you are going to love it. Zhuge Ke, Lu Ju, Zhu Yi, Shi Ji, Lu Kang, Lu Kai, Ding Feng, Zhuge Jing... I always encourage folks to read on. Don't stop because Cao Cao and Liu Bei are dead. You're just getting to the real meat of the era. Keep on keeping on!


That is wonderful to hear - I was always hesitant about moving forward after Cao Cao's death as I didn't get a good impression on Cao Pi, and Liu Shan was incompetent from what I know, and Sun Quan was the only capable leader once Liu Bei and Cao Cao died. I loved how Cao Cao would listen to a good strategy and reason and his intelligence was certainly not to be underestimated. And there were many times (at least from the novel) where Cao Cao showed great compassion towards the people (even if self-benefiting). I can't wait to continue expanding my knowledge in the era!
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:53 pm

Kongde wrote:I've got many, but I fear this is an improper thread to ask such questions! I've got tons of questions, but first I'll have to do some reading and if they aren't answered then, I'll ask.

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:Once you get into Imperial and Late Wu, you are going to love it. Zhuge Ke, Lu Ju, Zhu Yi, Shi Ji, Lu Kang, Lu Kai, Ding Feng, Zhuge Jing... I always encourage folks to read on. Don't stop because Cao Cao and Liu Bei are dead. You're just getting to the real meat of the era. Keep on keeping on!


That is wonderful to hear - I was always hesitant about moving forward after Cao Cao's death as I didn't get a good impression on Cao Pi, and Liu Shan was incompetent from what I know, and Sun Quan was the only capable leader once Liu Bei and Cao Cao died. I loved how Cao Cao would listen to a good strategy and reason and his intelligence was certainly not to be underestimated. And there were many times (at least from the novel) where Cao Cao showed great compassion towards the people (even if self-benefiting). I can't wait to continue expanding my knowledge in the era!


No problem, hope you find the answers and if not, this thread will await you

I don't think the novel does the latter era does the latter era any favours but that, the end of the game changing battles (there were major ones and important ones for internal ramifications but the grand sense of a Guandu and kingdom destruction isn't there for people) and the sense of poor rulers do put people off. The era after, say 219, becomes about politics, internal divides, power plays and a lot of intresting figures in the courts and armies.

Few like Cao Pi! Skilled man but so difficult to warm to.

In terms of skilled rulers (and regents) there were plenty in Wei and Wu but it was more on civil and political spheres, their flaws perhaps get more highlighted but many had great strengths. Shu had the four great ministers but even Liu Shan, his reputation within his own time and after wasn't anywhere near as bad as people think now. So you should find a few rulers or ruling figures to like (or dislike strongly :wink: )
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Kongde » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:28 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
No problem, hope you find the answers and if not, this thread will await you

I don't think the novel does the latter era does the latter era any favours but that, the end of the game changing battles (there were major ones and important ones for internal ramifications but the grand sense of a Guandu and kingdom destruction isn't there for people) and the sense of poor rulers do put people off. The era after, say 219, becomes about politics, internal divides, power plays and a lot of intresting figures in the courts and armies.

Few like Cao Pi! Skilled man but so difficult to warm to.

In terms of skilled rulers (and regents) there were plenty in Wei and Wu but it was more on civil and political spheres, their flaws perhaps get more highlighted but many had great strengths. Shu had the four great ministers but even Liu Shan, his reputation within his own time and after wasn't anywhere near as bad as people think now. So you should find a few rulers or ruling figures to like (or dislike strongly :wink: )


Also, I forgot to mention I've watched the Romance of Three Kingdoms both 1994 version and 2010. And based on that, I think the difference for me with Cao Pi is he seems slightly more tyrannical. With Cao Cao, it felt it was about ending the chaos (and sure, ultimately become the top power). But for Cao Pi it felt like it was all for the power grab, the chaos was irrelavant and just an opportune time. While Cao Pi listens to good sound advice mostly, he also does not have the charisma I believe Cao Cao to have.

(Really kinda getting off topic here, I apologize!)
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:40 am

Dong Zhou wrote: Not convinced with that. Wu were always aware that once Wei was done or severely weakened, Shu might try and Lu Meng was worried about Guan Yu being a threat. A more courteous attitude won't reduce that as an issue


How can you be sure of that? Guan Yu is pretty old by 219. I really doubt Wei was done in a span of 1-2 years, it'll take many-many years before Wei really weakened. Lu Meng could just train his men and build up stronger armies without Shu aware of it. Even if Guan Yu won on Fancheng, his army would stretch out as he is now deep in Wei territories. the farther Yu goes, the thin the defense line it'll be, Wu could just took that opportunity to seize Jingzhou. Why worry of an old bearded guy? Shu would never able to make a headway on Northwest anyway.

I think its more precise that Lu Meng wanted some meritorious achievement before he die? well, who don't want to take the head of an old long beard rebels guy anyway? :D


If Guan Yu did raid the supplies (I believe it is an annotation?), it doesn't change that Wu had plans and army in place for invasion even before news of said raid came in.


I think it is an annotation, though i dont remember from who. Well, i can't really blame Wu reacting that way after Guan Yu insulted them and driven their official away during the territorial dispute thing. For Wu, its a justified move to recover their own land from a liar and rebels.


Red Hare being Guan Yu's is a novel invention.

Sun Jian was Yuan Shu's (new) subordinate, that is different from leaving your army to race into another kingdom to have a discussion.


Ah, yea i keep forgetting about most of horses are purely novel invention, sorry.

Well, it's better than raiding ally's granary just because you wanted to maintain Yu Jin and his surrendered troop though, though i would like to discuss about it on other threat.


I doubt Liu Bei wanted to give up his lands anyway


Well, thats pretty much true though. Why would he want to hand over a rich land freely to other anyway.


The relations between the two warlords can probably be described as pragmatic and wary, marriage alliances were more about symbol then real closeness. Sun Quan allied at Chi Bi due to joint foe, he let Liu Bei run free due to risk of PR blowback and it more suited Wu for an alliance at the time.


I see.

----

Edit:
DaoLunOfShiji wrote:Once you get into Imperial and Late Wu, you are going to love it. Zhuge Ke, Lu Ju, Zhu Yi, Shi Ji, Lu Kang, Lu Kai, Ding Feng, Zhuge Jing... I always encourage folks to read on. Don't stop because Cao Cao and Liu Bei are dead. You're just getting to the real meat of the era. Keep on keeping on!


Read that? uhh... i don't really like Political Drama about how Sun Chen *cough* raped *cough* Wu dry. I'd more prefer to read how Sima Yi beat Cao Shuang's azz or how Deng Ai and other beat that sorry ZGL's student *cough* Jiang Wei *cough*. :D

Sorry for getting off topic, peace. :mrgreen:
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:21 am

The bit about Guan Yu raiding Wu for supplies is in Lu Meng's SGZ

Wei sent Yu Jin to save Fan, but Guan Yu captured Yu Jin and his command—men and horses numbering tens of thousands. Guan Yu then claimed that they were short on supplies and seized the grains at Xiangguan without permission [from Wu]. On hearing that, Sun Quan mobilized his men, and sent Lü Meng to move ahead of the main forces.
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:40 am

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:The bit about Guan Yu raiding Wu for supplies is in Lu Meng's SGZ

Wei sent Yu Jin to save Fan, but Guan Yu captured Yu Jin and his command—men and horses numbering tens of thousands. Guan Yu then claimed that they were short on supplies and seized the grains at Xiangguan without permission [from Wu]. On hearing that, Sun Quan mobilized his men, and sent Lü Meng to move ahead of the main forces.


high five! you're my hero, Daolun :mrgreen:
as a note, its on Yu Jin's as well i think. :D
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:12 pm

Thanks Daolun. Li_Shengsun, I'm not seeing it in Yu Jin's? I think I have discovered why I doubted it, I probably misremembered De Crespigny's comment in Generals of South SGZ 54/Wu 9:1278, suggests this incident was the trigger for Sun Quan to move against Guan Yu, but it is clear that preparations had been made well before. The Xiangguan incident may have served as propaganda to justify the attack

Li_Shengsun wrote:How can you be sure of that? Guan Yu is pretty old by 219. I really doubt Wei was done in a span of 1-2 years, it'll take many-many years before Wei really weakened. Lu Meng could just train his men and build up stronger armies without Shu aware of it. Even if Guan Yu won on Fancheng, his army would stretch out as he is now deep in Wei territories. the farther Yu goes, the thin the defense line it'll be, Wu could just took that opportunity to seize Jingzhou. Why worry of an old bearded guy? Shu would never able to make a headway on Northwest anyway.

I think its more precise that Lu Meng wanted some meritorious achievement before he die? well, who don't want to take the head of an old long beard rebels guy anyway? :D


Because of Lu Meng's own words, on general "Shu will attack us", a surprisingly honest discussion between Deng Zhi and Sun Quan about what happens once Wei is defeated. Sun Quan wanted an attack against someone as Wu was risking falling behind, if Guan Yu won that Fan then he would have more lands, Cao Cao could face internal issues and Shu's prestige would be even higher, Liu Bei might then try another attack. Wu timed deliberately while Guan Yu were tied down and while the ailing Lu Meng was still alive. Lu Meng was considerably worried by Guan Yu (he held a strong reputation within his own time) and Liu Bei had two gains in the northwest of late.

I don't think there is any suggestion Lu Meng put glory above state

Li_Shengsun wrote:I think it is an annotation, though i dont remember from who. Well, i can't really blame Wu reacting that way after Guan Yu insulted them and driven their official away during the territorial dispute thing. For Wu, its a justified move to recover their own land from a liar and rebels.


The disputed lands were taken in 215, Wu lost the ability to use that dispute for justification at that point.

Sun Quan was also a liar, they didn't invade themselves so they were inconsistent about punishing fibs. :wink:

Ah, yea i keep forgetting about most of horses are purely novel invention, sorry.

Well, it's better than raiding ally's granary just because you wanted to maintain Yu Jin and his surrendered troop though, though i would like to discuss about it on other threat.


It did exist but only for Lu Bu

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