Was Lu Meng right?

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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:23 pm

Those are big if's about Shu taking those cities though
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:16 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Those are big if's about Shu taking those cities though


The vast majority of the discussions on the forum is based upon "if's" in fact this discussion itself is based on one. Guan Yu showed that he had the potential to take territory even if he failed to do so in his northern strike. Zhuge Liang might of if he had more experience and his opponents hasn't been so talented. Again, big if's.
Shu-Han had potential however was never able to follow through in my opinion.
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:19 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Those are big if's about Shu taking those cities though

Yes those are :p I just think if they did then wei would've fallen due to internal problems. I mean the chances are so slim and they'd need a miracle to take those cities but I feel like when jing was in lius hands they were pushing wei back and they were riding on a lot of momentum to take the western flank of cao. That being said wu also desired more land, more soldierst, more resources, so sun quan not having those lands is like cao cao was in control of those lands. Sun obviously wanted to expand just as much as everyone else.
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Iain » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:03 am

Guan Yu was too stubborn and too wrapped up in his own greatness to worry about anything else besides his plan to gain victory over his foes, I really think that a string of good fortune made his ego too unflappable, he thought he could just march into his enemy's and they would fall apart at his mere presence.

Lu Meng seems to have been a smart man that observed what was transpiring and decided to act upon events as they unfolded, I don't think he lived a long time after Guan's defeat, Wu seemed to lose many good men in their prime.
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:15 pm

Iain wrote:Guan Yu was too stubborn and too wrapped up in his own greatness to worry about anything else besides his plan to gain victory over his foes, I really think that a string of good fortune made his ego too unflappable, he thought he could just march into his enemy's and they would fall apart at his mere presence.

Lu Meng seems to have been a smart man that observed what was transpiring and decided to act upon events as they unfolded, I don't think he lived a long time after Guan's defeat, Wu seemed to lose many good men in their prime.


Well, the same could have been said about Lu Meng. After all, if I am not remembering correctly Lu Meng said that his presence was one of the only reasons why Guan Yu doesn't just sweep away the Southland and take over everything.

Also considering that even without Lu Meng's actions Guan Yu would have still lost to Xu Huang I think that would have been a humbling event to put his ego in check.
Most major generals who achieved a string of victories tended to become arrogant, Cao Cao became arrogant after his conquest of the north and the take over of Jing. However his defeat at Chi Bi humbled him and he didn't make a similar blunder.

Lu Meng's victory at Jing while fantastic and one of the best campaigns ever did shatter any real attempt of cooperation between Wu and Shu-Han. The two sides kept large armies at each others boarder for decades for "mutual defense" but were really there in case the other one started failing so they can steal land.
The possibility of either defeating Wei was small enough, but Lu Meng guaranteed Wei's victory.
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby greencactaur » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:08 am

I agree that Shu having Jing was just as bad as Wei having Jing.
I also agree that Lu Meng taking Jing was actually detrimental in the long run for Wu. Shu was able to push Wei back in Han Zhong and had a lot of momentum riding on them to take even more of the NW. I'm not to familiar with the geography in ancient China, but it seemed like Liu Bei had an easier time to attack Cao Cao in the NW then Sun quan had in the NE. Liu Bei could attack him from Han Zhong into areas like Wu Du, Tian shui etc and it was harder to send forces to those areas because there seems to be less cities there. Sun Quan on the other hand has to send troops across the river to attack. Also the cities seem to be a lot more dense and closer together and the north east then the north west. the cause of this ultimately being that neither Shu or Wu were able to dent Wei any further because the weaker flank of Wei was extremely well guarded now that Shu had lost jing + the incident at Yi Ling.
NOW the thing with all that being said is Lu Meng obviously doesn't know what's going to happen in the future, I mean for all we know maybe Lu Meng planned on taking Jing, and then possibly attacking Yi while Sun Quan guarded his territory? I think as soon as jing was taken Lu Meng became ill, so i don't know if he ever had any plans as to what to do next.
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Re: Was Lu Meng right?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:16 am

Shu wanted Jing partly becuase the Hanzhong route was difficult, like Wu wanted Jing partly becuase Hefei was a problem. The problem with Hanzhong is the supplylines are bad and areas taken don't seem to have been easy/worth holding for long, it also puts them in terrotry that favoured Wei's cavalry

greencactaur wrote: I think as soon as jing was taken Lu Meng became ill,


It is quite possible Lu Meng hadn't recovered from illness when he entered Jing but clearly the illnesses that hit the Jing force didn't help his fragile health
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