Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

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Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:25 pm

I know that as you click on this thread you'll be thinking that Sun Fin has finally gone crazy but read my theory with an open mind and you might be suprised...

So the first time we know that Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo had contact was the Northen campaign against Han Sui. In that force they were the two successful outstanding officers. Now Sun Jian's SGZ presents them not getting on at all after Sun Jian disagred with one of his plans. Now Rafe is GoTS has done a good job of pointing out why thats wrong but I'll just briefly summerise his points. First off it was a good plan. Secondly Sun Jian used a variation of a plan and it was just a piece of propaganda to show how awful Dong was.

Now I know your thinking that doesn't prove anything. But when taking with the next point it at least raises an interesting question. Why did Dong offer Sun Jian a marriage if they were enemies? That would make no sense. However if the had been on very good terms in the earlier campaign then the propsal suddenly makes sense. Sun Jian was a highly comptent officer and a raising star yet if he agreed to work with Dong he'd be able to raise further faster.

Of course the obvious question is why did Jian turn it down. I'm inclined to credit it to his loyalty to the Han but I'm open to other suggestions.

So does this make sense? Do I still seem crazy?
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Gongsun Idiot » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:20 pm

I like your theory although I have to disagree a bit.
I don't know when exactly Dong Zhuo sent this marriage offer, so forgive me if my following theory proves wrong.
I guess Dong Zhuo only sent such a marriage offer to win over one of his many enemies. don't forget Sun Jian was the leader of the vanguard army of the coalition and thus posed as a close threat to Dong. It may well be that they weren't on bad terms, but I think that Dong Zhuo simply wanted to get Sun Jian out of the way so he could concentrate on the generals still waiting at Tiger Trap pass.
Cao Cao was one of the most friendly persons of his time. He was simply ... missunderstood.
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:54 pm

Dong clearly admired Sun Jian as a commander, perhaps feeling was mutual but wouldn't go as far as friendship.

Aside from any admiration, there were other reasons, like Gongsun Idiot's suggestion and perhaps Dong was also hoping to divide Sun Jian from Yuan Shu, which almost worked.
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:28 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Aside from any admiration, there were other reasons, like Gongsun Idiot's suggestion and perhaps Dong was also hoping to divide Sun Jian from Yuan Shu, which almost worked.


Indeed but if it was known that they had been friends while they had campaigned with each other in the North then Yuan Shu's apparent over reaction would make sense!
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:51 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
Indeed but if it was known that they had been friends while they had campaigned with each other in the North then Yuan Shu's apparent over reaction would make sense!


It makes sense anyway. Sun Jian was new to Yuan Shu's ranks and given his recent track record, was hardly striking anybody as trustworthy. Dong also can offer, in theory, more then Yuan Shu can, governorships and marquis, connections to the big guns so why wouldn't Yuan Shu be alarmed that his new subordinate has just had messengers from Dong?
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Marx!_II » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:02 am

Just of curiosity, what had Sun Jian done at this point to call his trustworthiness into question?

We're all familiar with Yuan Shu and the Unsent Supplies, did Sun Jian do something to return the favor?
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:55 am

He had just murdered two governors
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:10 am

Marx!_II wrote:Just of curiosity, what had Sun Jian done at this point to call his trustworthiness into question?

We're all familiar with Yuan Shu and the Unsent Supplies, did Sun Jian do something to return the favor?


On his way to join Yuan Shu he had killed to Goveners who he had fallen out with as Dong said.

But if they were the two best officers in the force then it makes sense they would of interacted and chances would say that they were either friends or rivals and if they'd been rivals then I doubt thge offer would of been made...
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:21 pm

But if they were the two best officers in the force then it makes sense they would of interacted and chances would say that they were either friends or rivals and if they'd been rivals then I doubt thge offer would of been made...


Or they could have been meh or just competitive rivals. If Dong hated Sun Jian, he wouldn't have made the offer I guess but he did employ Huangfu Song
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Re: Were Sun Jian and Dong Zhuo friends?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:21 pm

Fine, I conced defeat...

I still think its plausable though...
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