What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

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What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:00 am

Cao chong, favorite son of Cao Cao, was said to have inherited all the skillz of Cao Cao. Cao Cao considered Chong as a very good choice for his succession. But unfortunately, Chong died at the young age of 13. On his death bed, Cao Cao told Cao Pi (First emperor of Wei, and Cao Cao's successor) "I am sad, but now you can be happy".

I have some confidence that if Chong had lived much longer, and had not become ill, Cao Cao would have chosen Chong as his successor, none the less though, we could predict that Cao Pi would revolt and try to claim Wei.

Things might have turned out very different.

As for Sun Deng, Sun Quans first son, who also became sick, what if he had survived, and been claimed as Sun Quans successor? He was considered to be a great man, and would be a valiant successor. But again, he fell ill.

Please express your opinions on this matter.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.. and if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:24 am

I think we've had both of these questions asked in the what if thread before.
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:27 am

Crazedmongoose wrote:I think we've had both of these questions asked in the what if thread before.



I dont see Cao Chong, nor Sun Deng stated in the thread o0.

Thanks for telling me about the What if thread though =P
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:24 am

I think it's general consensus Cao Chong would have made a fine leader. But then Cao Pi and Cao Rui were also a fine leader. I think the most important thing for Cao-Wei wasn't having fine leaders. It was to continue Cao Cao's legacy of emasculating potential threats to the dynasty. Cao Cao was very effective in making sure he was the only effective power in the kingdom.

Though we don't have too many records of the politics of each kingdom, we can tell from three examples that Cao Cao was effective at this. Namely, he did not allow the gentry to become powerful as they were in the Han dynasty, he made Princess Bian his wife, in effect making sure that the Empress and Empress Dowager is not somebody from a powerful and prestigious clan who can subvert the ruler's power (something you'll note many emperors and faction leaders failed spectacularly at), and he didn't allow his potential heirs to form power bases (ie. executed Yang Xiu).

Cao Pi meanwhile allowed the gentry to regain the power they had under the former Han dynasty. And this ultimately let families like Sima have a chance to supplant the ruling family's power.


So my point is, the brilliance of the ruler is less of a factor than what they choose to do. Of course I doubt Cao Pi could have possibly foreseen the seeds of his policy. As they say, hindsight's 20/20.




I don't know enough about Wu to comment on Sun Deng. But I guess if a clear heir had been there it might have stopped that whole inheritance shit flinging contest which severely weakened Wu. But I fault that more on Sun Quan than on anybody else. He should have stopped factionalism amongst his heirs potential like Cao Cao did.
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:50 am

Crazedmongoose wrote:I think it's general consensus Cao Chong would have made a fine leader. But then Cao Pi and Cao Rui were also a fine leader. I think the most important thing for Cao-Wei wasn't having fine leaders. It was to continue Cao Cao's legacy of emasculating potential threats to the dynasty. Cao Cao was very effective in making sure he was the only effective power in the kingdom.

Though we don't have too many records of the politics of each kingdom, we can tell from three examples that Cao Cao was effective at this. Namely, he did not allow the gentry to become powerful as they were in the Han dynasty, he made Princess Bian his wife, in effect making sure that the Empress and Empress Dowager is not somebody from a powerful and prestigious clan who can subvert the ruler's power (something you'll note many emperors and faction leaders failed spectacularly at), and he didn't allow his potential heirs to form power bases (ie. executed Yang Xiu).

Cao Pi meanwhile allowed the gentry to regain the power they had under the former Han dynasty. And this ultimately let families like Sima have a chance to supplant the ruling family's power.


So my point is, the brilliance of the ruler is less of a factor than what they choose to do. Of course I doubt Cao Pi could have possibly foreseen the seeds of his policy. As they say, hindsight's 20/20.




I don't know enough about Wu to comment on Sun Deng. But I guess if a clear heir had been there it might have stopped that whole inheritance shit flinging contest which severely weakened Wu. But I fault that more on Sun Quan than on anybody else. He should have stopped factionalism amongst his heirs potential like Cao Cao did.



Which kingdom are you for? (which kingdom do you prefer)
Id be very interested to hear your opinions. Although i have been reading your posts, and believe you may be a Weiest?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.. and if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:46 am

I guess I'd be called a wei-ist if you had to slap a label on. But I only liked Cao Cao (not the later emperors, though I did have an affinity for Cao Mao), and only his early years, before he became Duke of Wei. (And long before the kingdom or dynasty of Wei existed)

After that point I really did like Wu. Like Lu Meng is probably one of my favourite Three Kingdoms general. And I liked Sun Quan and Lu Su a lot. But even then only until Sun Quan actually declared himself emperor. After that I didn't much care for Wu either.
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Jolt » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:25 pm

I also thouroughly like Cao Mao for having the courage to try regain the authoritarian power that was rightfully the Emperor's. Whereas other Emperors were content to live in the shadow of their puppeteers, Cao Mao was of a superior breed and courage. He would not stand to see his honorable clan be usurped in the way they were being.
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:05 pm

Honestly Cao Mao had the guts to do what Emperor Xian couldn't. Cao Mao like Emperor Xian tried at first for plots and conspiracies, which is the smart way to do it. But when Mao realized it wasn't going to work he made one last gambit whilst Xian passed to obscurity. They're very mirrored. Both picked at a young age for intelligence and character. Both puppets, both probably spent every waking moment trying to regain power. But it seems to me Emperor Xian just kept letting others take the fall for him. Hey, I guess it paid off because he lived his days out as a noble.

Related to this topic, the case of Empress Fu's death really stunk to me. Too many things didn't add up. If you read between the line of the case of Empress Fu, what I got is, somebody tried something against Cao Cao, it didn't work and Empress Fu took the fall. Because Cao Cao likes killing people sure, but he still doesn't strike me as the type of kill an Empress for somethings which may or may not have been said over 14 years before. Also the Empress can't be killed over something like that. That's a major move to be making and costs a lot of political capital. Cao Cao's personna suggests he doesn't care about past grievances at all. He kills you if you represent a significant present threat, sure. But he forgave Chen Lin, he forgave almost all the people who defected during Zhang Miao's rebellion, he burned the letters of those in his administration who contacted Yuan Shao, he forgave Zhang Xiu. Of course for the last two cases there were sound strategic reasons for forgiving.

There wasn't any documented Fu clan conspiracy against Cao Cao. Unlike Consort Dong's death which is pretty much because of Dong Cheng's plot. There's just no convincing sound reason as to why Empress Fu was killed. My conclusion is that the conspiracy was directly proveable to be from Emperor Xian himself. But you couldn't publicly say that. So depose the Empress as a warning shot.
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:23 pm

I liked Shu till i heard that Liu Bei executed his adopted son. And his dieing words were "i should have listened to Mi Fang and joined Wei" seeing as though he was loyal even though Mi Fang ( i think it was Mi Fang) told him he would get in trouble for not sending reinforcements.

My liking of Zhuge Liang dropped as well when i heard that he was the one who advised that Liu Feng be executed to avoid Heir problems. It makes him seem almost evil to me, like a really mini mini case of Sima Yi.

I dont like Wei, idk why. Might be (and im not using sarcasm) that Cao Pi took Zhen Ji away from one of the Yuan's. i forget who. That to me is just kind of wrong. Id laugh at him if Cao Rui wasnt even his son, seeing as though theres no evidence.

I used to like the Yuan family, who might have made another kingdom had they not been defeated by Wei, but once i heard how Yuan Shao killed one of the Gongsun's on his way back from an envoy, i instantly hated him.

Over all i like Wu, I think that they had great strategist(Lu Meng, Zhou Yu, Lu Xun/Lu Kang, the two Zhao's, Yu fan, and countless others. and could have even made their own five tiger generals, seeing as though they had Zhou Tai, Gan Ning, maybe Jiang Qin/Ling Tong,/Xu Sheng, and Taishi Ci.

I think that Wu got sour though when Sun Liang was dethroned. A lot of the Sun's became sour after him, and people in the wu kingdom started getting tired of the Sun's ruling.
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Re: What if Cao Chong or Sun Deng had survived?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:53 am

Hah, if you're going to start disliking a faction for their share of evil deeds then all three kingdoms have done plenty (Shu probably did the least though, since both Wu and Wei have outright massacred cities, but then Shu also had the least chance to do evil). Seriously you know how many people Sun Ce killed for pretty much no real reason? Thank the heavens that Sun Ce died when he did and never managed to capture the Emperor like he said he would. I reckon he would have killed many times what Cao Cao killed if he were in control of the court.


And as for the Cao Pi stealing Zhen Luo bit. The Cao family loved stealing wives, that must be one of their big vices. Cao Cao stole Guan Yu's prospective wife, stole Zhang Xiu's sister in law and that almost got him killed. Cao Pi stole Zhen Luo. Cao Rui just stole whomever.
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