Did Cao Cao have the strength to defeat a united Yuan front?

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Re: Did Cao Cao have the strength to defeat a united Yuan front?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:45 am

Crazedmongoose wrote:Honestly you felt sorry for him by the end. He probably would have suffered less if he DID commit suicide.

But in the beginning period Yuan Shu was so powerful. I mean even the Gongsun clan was like his vassal. He technically owned or had substantial influences over the entire or large swathes of the Yu, You and Yang provinces. Having said that if he didn't declare himself emperor it's doubtful Cao Cao would have been in a worse position because Yuan Shu's demise in power mostly just ended up giving Yuan Shao a boost. (both directly in Gongsun Zan losing You and indirectly in eliminating Yuan Shao's biggest rival).


Gongsun Zan a vassal? I thought he was an ally to balance out Shao's alliance to Liu Biao?
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Re: Did Cao Cao have the strength to defeat a united Yuan front?

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:59 am

By vassal I meant subordinate ally. I view them more as a Liu Biao-Huang Zu situation than an alliance of equals.

Having said that this is conjecture.
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Re: Did Cao Cao have the strength to defeat a united Yuan front?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:39 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:By vassal I meant subordinate ally. I view them more as a Liu Biao-Huang Zu situation than an alliance of equals.

Having said that this is conjecture.


Difference is Huang Zu was local, like Sun Ce/Yuan Shu (pre Shu annoucing himself Emperor), considering Zan held out against Shao for some period he most have been quite powerful and his land was a long way away from Shu's.
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Re: Did Cao Cao have the strength to defeat a united Yuan front?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:53 am

Huang Zu was like Xun Yu for Wei, a trusted officer assigned to a role so the ruler could concentrate elsewhere and if he died, would be replaced by someone else the ruler trusts. Gongsun Zan was even less of a vassal then Sun Quan was to Cao Pi, the alliance was simply that of two warlords with mutual interest in seeing Yuan Shao defeated
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Re: Did Cao Cao have the strength to defeat a united Yuan front?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:21 pm

indeed Huang Zu was a servant of Liu Biao who was trusted and given a lot of responsibility, as we all know Liu Biao had bad taste in friends and vassels :wink:
Gonsun Zan and Yuan Shu were more like allies of convenience, basically both looking at the situation and figuring that they can eliminate one threat by forming an "alliance" with the other one. Most likely Gonsun Zan would show more respect to Yuan Shu as his family was very esteemed

Yuan Shu on paper was very very powerful. Remember he had Sun Ce as his "vassel" so when one would look at his power he would control the Yu province (well most of it) and a sizable chunk of the Yang province, so this would be quite intimidating to those around him. It is natural for the other warlords to not desire to want to face him by themselves. To be honest it was Sun Ce treason towards Yuan Shu which paved the way to his defeat. Though that treason was well deserved and the right choice to make, after declaring himself emperor Yuan Shu was a sinking ship to which Sun Ce intelligently abandoned. If Yuan Shu hadn't declared himself emperor and treated Sun Ce better and kept his loyalty then he would have been a force to be reckoned with. Imagine Yuan Shu with essentially early Wu as loyal servants, that alliance of Cao Cao, Lu Bi, and Liu Bei would have had a lot of trouble facing Yuan Shu then as even combined they might not match the man power and talent in Yuan Shu's forces.....maybe.

As for the Yuan kids, yeah they were stronger then SGZ likes to portray them, but if they united i think it simply would have taken Cao Cao several more years to win. Liu Biao is too much of a coward to actually attack northward and it is possible that Liu Bei could have been dragged into Biao's fight with Wu which would be bad. Liu Bei didn't have the strength to face Cao Cao alone and betraying Liu Biao to help Wu would have made him look really really bad.
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Re: Did Cao Cao have the strength to defeat a united Yuan front?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:12 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:As for the Yuan kids, yeah they were stronger then SGZ likes to portray them, but if they united i think it simply would have taken Cao Cao several more years to win.


Hmmm interesting :D do you have the sources of informations about the forces of Yuan kids?
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