Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby James » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:35 am

SilentNinja wrote:Wei ists don't care what a Zhao Yun fan says, no matter what my point refers. Sorry James, but you're going to have to ignore my stubborn attitude towards Wei ists, but I mean no harm to turn this into a flame war.

The '[Wei|Shu|Wu]ist' labels pretty much set people up to overreact and misinterpret history and other debates in discussions, and it cheapens what is a truly valid criticism of Shu—that many Shu officers were overblown or fictionalized in the novel. Obviously someone who is heavily biased in favor of a kingdom is likely to land their opinions a little off the mark, but exaggerated responses to opinions, from the same perspective, are just as likely to be wrong.

*And stubborn attitudes are fine. Just keep the personal attacks out of it.

SilentNinja wrote:Ever since the novel and the records being translated in english, the western 3kingdoms community don't believe if any of the ShuHan officers were good to begin with. The different between the novel and history, what is really true and not intensify, James. It's not even funny....yeah, they took horrible records because they're the LOSING SIDE. It's modern common sense.

Shu took horrible records because they took horrible records. When Chen Shou created the Sanguozhi he used official histories from Wei, Shu, and Wu. Wei and Wu both kept good records, but Shu kept terrible records. This is why Shu's segment of the Sanguozhi is so much smaller than, say, Wu's. The fact that Jin commissioned the work, and that Wei is the basis for Jin, both play a role in what was or was not entered, but Chen Shou worked hard to include alternate accountings of sensitive topics in other biographies and Pei Songzhi bridged the various gaps and omissions in many areas that mattered (e.g. Cao Pi and Empress Zhen).

SilentNinja wrote:Did I say they didn't keep it as comprehensive? Look, I believe historians tend to hide things or avoid putting effort to describe a historical figure the majority(Points at Wei and Wu historians) hardly believe. Writing a story of someone you haven't met before is very hard work and sometimes life threaten because of favoritism. You can base on it with the Bible.....(and I'm not joking as being raised by a Jehovah Witness)

What you believe to be the case here is less important than what we know to be the case. Chen Shou's position, and the political influences that constrained him, including many of the sensitive topics, are all well documented. You can speculate or make generalized assumptions here, but there's not much point—we have a good picture of the historic influences behind the Sanguozhi and other major historic works. And don't forget that Chen Shou came from Shu.

SilentNinja wrote:Now, do you honest think Zhao Yun don't having any feelings of depression over Liu Bei's decision to attack Wu? It could neglect what others feel about Liu Bei's decision being justified to make Shu look tough. I HATE that logic, Zilong didn' t want to make Jiang Dong enemies anyway, but Liu Bei put his feelings over the consequence of Guan Yu's death and the Han dethronement you understand what I'm staying here admin? Chen Shou didn't bother to describe how Zhao Yun feel about Liu Bei's decision, so to have assist the usurper could futher insult Zilong's own motivation. He did NOT join Liu Bei for fame as the novel tried to portray him as.

Uh... how Zilong felt? Seriously? Historic works need to contain verifiable facts. If Zhao Yun went around raging about this decision then that could have been documented, but how could anybody take Chen Shou seriously if he started documenting how these various people felt? I imagine Zhao Yun was reserved enough, and loyal enough, to keep those feelings to himself, and do his duty. And regarding Liu Bei's march on Wu, it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. It took place quite some time after Guan Yu's death.

I would disagree that the novel portrays Zhao Yun as having joined Liu Bei for fame.

SilentNinja wrote:He wasn't good for NOTHING. What do you think I take him for compare to the guy who is SUPPOSE TO BE HIS FRIEND*points at Liu Bei*? A guy who believed in Liu Bei's inheritience whom Xuande spend time complaining his hardships towards it with that much influence he cause and met the Emperor.....-_- This is getting annoying to no end right now, because I already talked about this with a fellow Wu ist friend over the matter and all that Jing Zhou jazz between Liu bei's fraction and Jiang Dong.

Huh? Subjective much?

SilentNinja wrote:Just check out what Sun Shang Xiang took both men for when they're trying their best to have her settle with them. Liu Bei barely understands tomboys and Zhao Yun seen too much tragedy with women(Points at Liu Bei's daughter and Chang Ban) Jiang Dong made a fool of the whole gratitude with Chi Bi while Cao Cao's fraction is still watching them.(How pointless the alliance could be as Cao Cao's ministers describe)

There is no way you could base any sort of historic analysis on this...
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby SilentNinja » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:14 am

James wrote:
*And stubborn attitudes are fine. Just keep the personal attacks out of it.

If I were attacking him, I would have hacked his account or call the "Your mom" insults.


Shu took horrible records because they took horrible records. When Chen Shou created the Sanguozhi he used official histories from Wei, Shu, and Wu. Wei and Wu both kept good records, but Shu kept terrible records. This is why Shu's segment of the Sanguozhi is so much smaller than, say, Wu's. The fact that Jin commissioned the work, and that Wei is the basis for Jin, both play a role in what was or was not entered, but Chen Shou worked hard to include alternate accountings of sensitive topics in other biographies and Pei Songzhi bridged the various gaps and omissions in many areas that mattered (e.g. Cao Pi and Empress Zhen)

I know....but does it matter AFTER the novel exist, the folklore, and the legend? Nothing changed since everyone knew why that despicible era happened*Points at bad people*.


What you believe to be the case here is less important than what we know to be the case. Chen Shou's position, and the political influences that constrained him, including many of the sensitive topics, are all well documented. You can speculate or make generalized assumptions here, but there's not much point—we have a good picture of the historic influences behind the Sanguozhi and other major historic works. And don't forget that Chen Shou came from Shu.

If it were less important, why are you interested in what I said? Well, it's obvious where Chen Shou's position lies and that's where every historian around him wanted to know. Well, my problem here is that it's not enough. But, does it matter now what we learn from all this? China can leave all this a legend as much as they like, but we wanted to know MORE. I know, I know.....but I have a good picture none of that was by coincidence(Since the Bible already describes this kind of event prophetize). The guy just write what he knows and it's NOT his story, but the story of others on account.

Uh... how Zilong felt? Seriously? Historic works need to contain verifiable facts. If Zhao Yun went around raging about this decision then that could have been documented, but how could anybody take Chen Shou seriously if he started documenting how these various people felt? I imagine Zhao Yun was reserved enough, and loyal enough, to keep those feelings to himself, and do his duty. And regarding Liu Bei's march on Wu, it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. It took place quite some time after Guan Yu's death.

So it's better to have Zhao Yun describe less emotional compare to Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang, alright whatever. The historian's loss, it couldn't be helped. Oh and to me it IS a knee-jerk reaction. So why did Liu Bei even have Zhao Yun on his side?

I would disagree that the novel portrays Zhao Yun as having joined Liu Bei for fame.

Fair enough, but you could have seen through the Lady Fan incident drama. Luo Guanzhong made Zilong a hypocrite on Women and not caring the tragedy of women in the era. Don't forget how Liu Bei and Zhao Yun's reunion was compare to the historical part.


Huh? Subjective much?

Not theorical....?

There is no way you could base any sort of historic analysis on this...

Why, because Shu and Wu were meant to be enemies in a long run and hate each other from the very beginning of Chi Bi? :lol: We wouldn't be giving a *BEEP* about Chi Bi if all this Wu/Shu drama resides and Zhou Yu's novel personality, Sun Quan's impatient, paranoid behavior, Lu Meng's true colors, Liu Bei x SSX romance and Guan Yu's stupid mistake.-_-

And yet you said, ther'es no way I could base that sort of analysis on that? You're the kind of person who can say the Bible is a myth and I'm just assuming you are.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby James » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:28 am

SilentNinja wrote:If I were attacking him, I would have hacked his account or call the "Your mom" insults.

Read the forum rules if you need clarification. We maintain a civil atmosphere in this forum.

SilentNinja wrote:I know....but does it matter AFTER the novel exist, the folklore, and the legend? Nothing changed since everyone knew why that despicible era happened*Points at bad people*.

I'm not sure what point you were making here. Clarify?

SilentNinja wrote:If it were less important, why are you interested in what I said? Well, it's obvious where Chen Shou's position lies and that's where every historian around him wanted to know. Well, my problem here is that it's not enough. But, does it matter now what we learn from all this? China can leave all this a legend as much as they like, but we wanted to know MORE. I know, I know.....but I have a good picture none of that was by coincidence(Since the Bible already describes this kind of event prophetize). The guy just write what he knows and it's NOT his story, but the story of others on account.

I was simply responding to all your points. More specifically, I was addressing a point—'interested' isn't always the best word to use here, as people respond to posts for numerous reasons. Back to the discussion at hand, sure, we all want to know more, but 'more' in an historical discussion has to come from historical sources. Anything else is just a fiction and any speculation has to be delivered from a solid platform to hold any potential value. And what's with the bible comparisons? Sanguozhi is an historic documented composed to tell history. The bible is a religious document—religious documents are composed with a very different purpose in mind.

SilentNinja wrote:So it's better to have Zhao Yun describe less emotional compare to Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang, alright whatever. The historian's loss, it couldn't be helped. Oh and to me it IS a knee-jerk reaction. So why did Liu Bei even have Zhao Yun on his side?

You might see some reference to the emotional state of someone like Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang because they were the foremost personalities of a kingdom. You cannot expect to see similar accounts of other people in the kingdom unless there are considerable events for those reports to be based upon.

SilentNinja wrote:Fair enough, but you could have seen through the Lady Fan incident drama. Luo Guanzhong made Zilong a hypocrite on Women and not caring the tragedy of women in the era. Don't forget how Liu Bei and Zhao Yun's reunion was compare to the historical part.

Zhao Yun, in the novel, is the model general/soldier. He puts his ruler and his duties ahead of women. It is a common theme through the novel, and I wouldn't read too much into it. You can't expect modern-day thinking to apply to discussions about a novel written so long ago. It is no different from seeing homosexual undertones in the cases where a male officer 'slept' with another male officer. In any case, these aspects of Zhao Yun's personality are probably fictional in part or in whole.

SilentNinja wrote:Not theorical....?

There's only so much you can draw from subjective interpretation before a point of view breaks down.

SilentNinja wrote:Why, because Shu and Wu were meant to be enemies in a long run and hate each other from the very beginning of Chi Bi? :lol:

No, because our knowledge of Sun Shang Xiang is quite limited. We only have minor accountings of her personality and there are numerous interpretations of those personality elements. She's subject to much legitimate speculation. We've only read that perhaps Sun Shang Xiang's tomboyish nature made Liu Bei uncomfortable, but we don't really know how he felt. We cannot make any assumptions about Zhao Yun—almost any such assumption about his mental state or personal interpretation of these events is bound to be wrong. What that has to do with Chibi is totally beyond me.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby SilentNinja » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:43 am

James wrote:Read the forum rules if you need clarification. We maintain a civil atmosphere in this forum.[

I know, too bad this isn't a 'friendly' place for Shuists alright. Let it go, I'm not going to bite Qu Hui besides everyone agrees with him.

I'm not sure what point you were making here. Clarify?

Forget it, you're not going to believe me admin. Lets just drop it now and move on.


I was simply responding to all your points. More specifically, I was addressing a point—'interested' isn't always the best word to use here, as people respond to posts for numerous reasons. Back to the discussion at hand, sure, we all want to know more, but 'more' in an historical discussion has to come from historical sources. Anything else is just a fiction and any speculation has to be delivered from a solid platform to hold any potential value. And what's with the bible comparisons? Sanguozhi is an historic documented composed to tell history. The bible is a religious document—religious documents are composed with a very different purpose in mind.

did I say it was the 'best' word, English nerd? the bible is more than just a religious document, if you want me to prove it, go to watchtower.org. Sanguozhi, as old as it documented, there are MANY MANY other historical documents on the THree Kingdoms era, not just Chen Shou's book. Many different points of views on the despicble era.


You might see some reference to the emotional state of someone like Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang because they were the foremost personalities of a kingdom. You cannot expect to see similar accounts of other people in the kingdom unless there are considerable events for those reports to be based upon.

They became RICH EGOMANIACS more respected than Zilong with more clarified bios, many alternatives, I could go on sir....and yet this thread here shows Liu Bei's personality.


Zhao Yun, in the novel, is the model general/soldier. He puts his ruler and his duties ahead of women. It is a common theme through the novel, and I wouldn't read too much into it. You can't expect modern-day thinking to apply to discussions about a novel written so long ago. It is no different from seeing homosexual undertones in the cases where a male officer 'slept' with another male officer. In any case, these aspects of Zhao Yun's personality are probably fictional in part or in whole.k

Yes I can and 'slept' with another male officer wasn't a gay reference. It didn't say he made intercourse which is more older word term than gay.


There's only so much you can draw from subjective interpretation before a point of view breaks down.

So, what's your point of view?


No, because our knowledge of Sun Shang Xiang is quite limited.

That's your problem, not mine. She's a WOMAN.... :roll:

What that has to do with Chibi is totally beyond me.

You can't be serious.... :shock: I already relate a few things how. Forget it, lets drop it. And have people believe Liu Bei's attack on Yi ling was justifible. :roll:

Are you going to say the Bible is a myth and not historical even if you wanted to know Jehovah?
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:31 am

James, Chen Shou did the SGZ as a private project, not a Jin one. I just checked in Empress and Consorts to confirm it. That and Liu Bei was scared of going into Lady Sun's chambers while Zhuge Liang feared she would caused trouble.

Silent Ninja, stop insulting other members, by now you should know basic forum rules. Your an intelligent person, having debated with you at koei, koei warriors, way of musou and now it seems here, I know that to be true. The problem is, your feelings with Zhao Yun, to a lesser extent Cao Zhi and Zhen Ji are so strong, it means you refuse to accept anyone else can be fans and any suggestion that Yun was less then perfect provokes a sometimes nasty reaction which includes you being rude. I remember one of the first topics I saw you in, a Zhao Yun/Guan Yu thread and a discussion was on Yun's performance in his last battle, you decided everyone was against Yun and when quoted the pro Yun comments on first two pages, remember your reaction? I won't quote it or mention the board at you as that wouldn't be fair but bear with me, I have reason for bringing it up.

Now I tend not to remind people of their first posts for a very simple reason. Nearly every person here, including myself, groans at their own past postings, our views will have changed, in some cases we will have matured. The reason I remind you of its that your doing the same thing here. Qu Hui isn't a Yun fan though that is no reason to be so dismissive of his arguments, not sure what James is but because two people disagree with Zhao Yun being a saint, anyone who remotely disagrees with you is anti Shu or anti Yun and that everyone in the forum is anti Shu. The fact that nobody has agreed with you anywhere I have seen might indicate something, for you that seems everywhere you happen to go is exactly the same, even with different members, that we are all anti Shu. Did it ever occur to you that you might be going about this all wrong?

The problem Silent Ninja is that you have decided certain things. That Zhao Yun was near perfect, that Zhen Ji loved Zhao Yun, that Cao Zhi was a Han loyalist, that Zhi's supporters and all Zhuge Liang's friends were Han loyalists. Nothing seems to be allowed to stand in your way, even if the evidence is tenuous (Ji and Yun were in same city ergo they loved each other), or indeed if the evidence is non existent, you have decided you are right and everything thing else that disagrees is biased and wrong. Liu Bei disagree with Zhao Yun but Yun is never wrong and couldn't possibly have chosen a ambitious warlord rather then a moral one so you decide Liu Bei managed the biggest amount of warlord emo in history. Meanwhile being made a noble, being given an income for life is a reward throughout history has always been one of the greatest things a lord could give but somehow it is an insult that only you can see.

The reason Shu's bio's are on inferior quality is simple. Liu Bei tried to form a history department but it collapsed due to the eccentric nature of the scholars in Yi, it go so bad Liu Bei even had a play made out of it mocking the court historians. Liu Shan and his ministers seem to have felt it wasn't worth trying it again and anyone able would have been used for, in their view, more important things. Qiao Zhou, who you hate and blame, was put in charge of educational matters and was a court adviser, what history works he did were hobbies and he chose to do a discussion on texts, ceremony and a new type of local history. There was no grand anti Yun anti Shu conspiracy behind it, simply a state that had it's fingers burnt in the past so concentrated it's officers elsewhere. Chen Shou didn't even release the sgz while alive and he certainly ran a few risks in his life, he certainly was not a man who went around being obedient or covering things up for his masters. So why would that change now for a book he wasn't even showing his masters?

The reason the bio's don't agree with your views? Not some grand conspiracy handed down through the ages and started by Qiao Zhou and his evil student Chen Shou. Relatively not important people, the Zhao Yun's, the Yue Jin's, the Cheng Pu's of the world tended not to have things recorded in such detail as emperor's like Liu Bei. It is a great pity but there is nothing sinister behind that. That woman's lives aren't recorded in detail (why you attack James over that fact, I don't know) is a reflection on the sexist entry of the gentry but again, not an anti Yun/Zhi conspiracy. The other reason is that what you have decided are true is not facts but your personal theories. They may be intresting but Qiao Zhou didn't go around the land burning all sources that said all of Zhuge Liang's friends rose up to help the Han and had evil Wei historians write that they served Wei loyally in important posts, or however you have decided this works out of Yun hatred. The reason is that Zhuge Liang's friends didn't rise up, they served the Wei government loyally. The reason Cao Zhi isn't recorded as a Han loyalist? Perhaps simply, because he wasn't a Han loyalist but a youngster who got drunk in excess till he matured, an unhappy man and a caring one who had a genius for poetry. This makes him a sad tale but we can't say he was a Han loyalist as a hard nailed on fact, all anyone who wishes to argue it is true can say is that it is a personal theory.

If you come onto a forum portraying such theories as facts, going in with a rude, dismissive and conspiracy minded attitude into debates, you will get argued against a lot as you have been. If you came on, said "ok I know this isn't in the records but this is what I like to believe", accepted that other people can disagree without being biased and were more polite (I know, pot+kettle=black here, it is something I need to work on), you would find yourself in less debates. The debates you would have would be more enjoyable for all concerned

I don't mind theories or personal beliefs, I like to believe Lady Sun loved Liu Shan, but presenting them as facts and getting angry when others disagree is not wise.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby SilentNinja » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:12 pm

We can just conclude Liu Bei did the right thing here......=/(And I'll still retort)

That'll make you guys feel better to your understanding.

I just checked in Empress and Consorts to confirm it. That and Liu Bei was scared of going into Lady Sun's chambers while Zhuge Liang feared she would caused trouble.

It's one of the major issues regarding to the alliance between Shu and Wu. Does it look like Shu wanted to be enemies with them when SSX continue to make uncomfortable situations with the guy who couldn't understand tomboys and women abuse in the era. Kongming was just paranoid.

This brings more ShuHan hate in the western community I assure you......
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:25 pm

SilentNinja wrote:We can just conclude Liu Bei did the right thing here......=/(And I'll still retort)

That'll make you guys feel better to your understanding.

There you go with insults again.

SilentNinja wrote:
I just checked in Empress and Consorts to confirm it. That and Liu Bei was scared of going into Lady Sun's chambers while Zhuge Liang feared she would caused trouble.

It's one of the major issues regarding to the alliance between Shu and Wu. Does it look like Shu wanted to be enemies with them when SSX continue to make uncomfortable situations with the guy who couldn't understand tomboys and women abuse in the era.

Shangxiang was trouble, pure and simple. She was menacing enough to scare her warlord husband and her servents caused problems.

SilentNinja wrote:Kongming was just paranoid.

No, not really. Shangxiang's female servents were very unruly, causing all sorts of problems, so its not a far stretch for Kongming to assume that she would cause problems (and he was right).

SilentNinja wrote:This brings more ShuHan hate in the western community I assure you......

You didn't read most of Dong's post, did you?
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby James » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:02 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:James, Chen Shou did the SGZ as a private project, not a Jin one. I just checked in Empress and Consorts to confirm it. That and Liu Bei was scared of going into Lady Sun's chambers while Zhuge Liang feared she would caused trouble.

What section did you read that in? I'm surprised I missed something like that. In any case, Chen Shou did have to avoid sensitive subjects, use pro-Jin terminology, and also had to omit/write around powerful Jin families. I'm pretty sure a good part of this discussion takes place while discussing Empress Zhen and Cao Pi.

Dong Zhou wrote:[...] not sure what James is but because two people disagree with Zhao Yun being a saint, anyone who remotely disagrees with you is anti Shu or anti Yun and that everyone in the forum is anti Shu. [...]

I'm actually a fan of Zhao Yun and Shu. I usually defend him. :lol:
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:08 pm

James wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:James, Chen Shou did the SGZ as a private project, not a Jin one. I just checked in Empress and Consorts to confirm it. That and Liu Bei was scared of going into Lady Sun's chambers while Zhuge Liang feared she would caused trouble.

What section did you read that in? I'm surprised I missed something like that. In any case, Chen Shou did have to avoid sensitive subjects, use pro-Jin terminology, and also had to omit/write around powerful Jin families. I'm pretty sure a good part of this discussion takes place while discussing Empress Zhen and Cao Pi.

The section on Chen Shou (page 63 in my copy) states:
Empresses and Consorts wrote:Since the writing of the work had not been officially sponsored, official copies were not made until after Chen's death 21.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:12 pm

James wrote:What section did you read that in? I'm surprised I missed something like that. In any case, Chen Shou did have to avoid sensitive subjects, use pro-Jin terminology, and also had to omit/write around powerful Jin families. I'm pretty sure a good part of this discussion takes place while discussing Empress Zhen and Cao Pi.



The Chen Shou bit :wink:

He had to be careful granted, saying Sima Yi was a traitorous scum bag would have been stupid, while he had a habit of risk taking, he wasn't suicidal. Yet he still included Zhen Ji's suicide, still included Cao Cao's darker deeds, still gave Liu Bei legitimacy of lineage and called him kind.

I'm actually a fan of Zhao Yun and Shu. I usually defend him


I don't know you anymore :P
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