Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby Qu Hui » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:35 am

tofu wrote: :roll: I understand that Guan Yu made a huge mistake, lost Jing, and lost his life, but why do people keep on ridiculing him for it? The guy took care of the place for ten years.

Actually, by the time Kongming went to Yizhou it was 214, so Guan Yu only protected Jingzhou for five years, and really, had more than enough officers so that he didn't have to do much. It was only when he stopped listening to them, especially on the Mi Fang Fu Shiren matter, that he was in trouble.
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:30 am

I dont Mean to ridicule him, but He did in the few years Shu had those lands, blew all chances they had in such a short time, If he just let that ego of his go his officers wouldnt have resented him so much. Its the fact that liu bie for w/e reason trusted it to him and he kept screwing up, and instead of punshing him or replaceing him liu bei kept letting him run it, and he responded by ruining any chance shu had at restoring the han dynasty.
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:59 am

dymlos timbre wrote:Thats the thing, Who could have Been vicorey in his place?


Zhao Yun perhaps, not sure he had enough political clout

tofu wrote: :roll: I understand that Guan Yu made a huge mistake, lost Jing, and lost his life, but why do people keep on ridiculing him for it? The guy took care of the place for ten years.


because he lost every camapign he fought in Jing? His political mistakes? I'm not ridiculing and think his errors get overplayed, he was an able administrator and a great warrior, but none the less he mucked up
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby Stallion Fury » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:11 am

dymlos timbre wrote:Ok, so heres a big "what if.." alright liu bei marches of under the condition of revenge for the death of guan yu, now instead of sitting back and watching, say cao pi joins in on the attack on wu, do you think Wu would be destroyed? if so, then what?? would liu bei have more of a chance to take wei down (maybe they gain heavy losses?) or would cao pi attack pretty much secure Wei's victory much earlier?


Well, this would never happen, but since it is a "what if," I believe Wu would have been destroyed, although barely. And then Wei would backstab Shu and blast it into oblivion!
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby Zhilong » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:10 am

dymlos timbre wrote:Yeah Cao pi's greatest mistake, does anyone know why he didnt Attack when such a perfect oppurtunity was presented to him?


If you examine his reign, he has quite an ego and is relatively easily manipulated and predictable in some ways. Wu grasped this early on and played on his ego, Cao Pi thought he could do what his father failed and settle Wu without even fighting and ignored the advice of his ministers. Of course, there is the other consideration that ppl will be reluctant to surrender to you if you go and freaking attack them or refuse to accept them as their vassal - Sun Quan would do something similar and accept Gongsun Yuan as a vassal against the advice of Zhang Zhao.

was his vassel? then Cao pi could have easily made him leave His palace and place him somewhere north were his officers cant contact him? Cao pi should have seen that Sun quan was just trying to save his hide.


Although Sun Quan was his vassal, the bargain doesn't quite work that way. Sun Quan was ruler of his own lands, is he really going to just come and become a prisoner? It was his heir that was supposed to go to Wei as hostage as per convention but Sun Quan kept delaying it. Later when Wei did attack Sun Quan offered his heir as hostage again but Cao Pi was furious and said that if Sun Quan sent him over in the morning, he would retreat his troops by night. Sun Quan in the end did not send anyone. :P

mrbeate wrote:I think Wu would be terminated, and possibly surrender to one of them. If They defeat Wu then Cao Pi would probably end up having Yangzhou while Liu Bei gets most of Jing. In the end Cao Pi would win against Liu Bei, Shu couldn't take down Wei when they did have Jing and their rear was protected by their allies Wu. But now Wei surrounds them and Liu Bei's army is smaller than Cao Pi's. I still think Wei would win if Liu Bei and Cao Pi sandwiched Wu.


It depends how it played out. Lu Fan was on guard against Wei anyway so it is not as if Wu was unprepared for a 2 front war.

Even if one of the attackers is victorious, it doesn't mean the other also will be and there will be an even split of Wu, or even that Wu will be terminated. Sun Quan was an excellent ruler and if he was in trouble at one front he will be sure to employ different tactics to delay or come to peace with one side even if it meant lying or ceding some territory to limit damage. He could immediately send his heir to Wei in return for their retreat and offer himself up once there peace if things were really dire or offer up terms with Liu Bei, he still had plenty of room to manouvre. No one really threatened him in the end anyway and he turned Liu Bei back with ease and was able to deal with Wei when they attacked.

Victory and defeat aren't always decided soley on army size and many factors come into play. The Han dynasty was created from a base in Shu by Liu Bang and he defeated his more powerful rival. It is highly likely though that the civil war would have concluded much sooner though if Wu was wiped out since the tripod/balance of power would have been destroyed.

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Essential reading for this topic: Liu Ye's memorial to Cao Pi and his analysis on the advantages of attacking Wu along with Shu.
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby mrbeate » Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:24 pm

Zhilong wrote:It depends how it played out. Lu Fan was on guard against Wei anyway so it is not as if Wu was unprepared for a 2 front war.

Even if one of the attackers is victorious, it doesn't mean the other also will be and there will be an even split of Wu, or even that Wu will be terminated. Sun Quan was an excellent ruler and if he was in trouble at one front he will be sure to employ different tactics to delay or come to peace with one side even if it meant lying or ceding some territory to limit damage. He could immediately send his heir to Wei in return for their retreat and offer himself up once there peace if things were really dire or offer up terms with Liu Bei, he still had plenty of room to manouvre. No one really threatened him in the end anyway and he turned Liu Bei back with ease and was able to deal with Wei when they attacked.

Victory and defeat aren't always decided soley on army size and many factors come into play. The Han dynasty was created from a base in Shu by Liu Bang and he defeated his more powerful rival. It is highly likely though that the civil war would have concluded much sooner though if Wu was wiped out since the tripod/balance of power would have been destroyed.


If one attacker is victorious, in a large scale battle on one side, the morale of soldiers fighting on the other front will lower greatly, and possibly withdraw troops and reinforce the other front in some way. So it plays a big part. And looking at the geographical Situation i think Cao Pi would probably invade the areas around Lu Jiang and Yang Zhou , while Liu Bei can only invade Jing. If Liu Bei deals the deciding blow on Jing and takes it, Cao Pi knowing that Wu morale is low and is in a confusion will swoop in and take Yangzhou, or if Cao Pi deals the deciding blow on Yangzhou and takes the capital, then Liu Bei will take the advantage and swoop in at Jing. Or Liu Bei takes Jing and Cao Pi does not take any cities yet. Then Sun Quan would be cornered and ultimately defeated.

This is a what if Wu was attacked by both Shu and Wei, my answer does not include treaties and what not.
Troops are still a factor in War, if you have many troops and lose a campaign that took a huge toll of casualties then you have an extra reserve of troops, to invade once again, or defend from a counter-attack.
Wu's best people in my opinion of that time was prob Lu Xun, Ding Feng, and Xu Sheng. Can they be spread-out to face Wei's Sima Yi and there highly skilled Generals, and Shu's Kongming and 3 Tiger Generals at the same time? I doubt Wu will handle both of them.
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:05 pm

If Wei and Shu's senior generals are their civil officers then Wu will be happy

This is a what if Wu was attacked by both Shu and Wei, my answer does not include treaties and what not.


Even so, Wu wouldn't be so dumb as to continue a 2 front war and it is not in Liu Bei's interests for Wu to fall to Wei so can see peace being made
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:21 pm

mrbeate wrote:If one attacker is victorious, in a large scale battle on one side, the morale of soldiers fighting on the other front will lower greatly, and possibly withdraw troops and reinforce the other front in some way. So it plays a big part. And looking at the geographical Situation i think Cao Pi would probably invade the areas around Lu Jiang and Yang Zhou , while Liu Bei can only invade Jing. If Liu Bei deals the deciding blow on Jing and takes it, Cao Pi knowing that Wu morale is low and is in a confusion will swoop in and take Yangzhou, or if Cao Pi deals the deciding blow on Yangzhou and takes the capital, then Liu Bei will take the advantage and swoop in at Jing. Or Liu Bei takes Jing and Cao Pi does not take any cities yet. Then Sun Quan would be cornered and ultimately defeated.


If Wu suffered some defeat on one of the fronts, Sun Quan does not need to withdraw troops from the other front to reinforce, he always keeps troops in reserve. In any case i do not see Liu Bei making any in-roads unless something drastic happened. He was easily blocked by Lu Xun and his tactics were piss poor according to Lu Xun.

Take for example, when Shu surrendered to Wei, Wu attacked Baidi and Luo Xian held out while greatly outnumbered and suffering a morale hit of a surrendered state that had no help coming.

Wu's best people in my opinion of that time was prob Lu Xun, Ding Feng, and Xu Sheng. Can they be spread-out to face Wei's Sima Yi and there highly skilled Generals, and Shu's Kongming and 3 Tiger Generals at the same time? I doubt Wu will handle both of them.


Lu Fan was senior to Lu Xun at the time and guarding against the north. ZL was not even present at that campaign and i feel his presence would not necessarily affect the offensive effort much but i feel if he was there, they would not have suffered such a great defeat.
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby mrbeate » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:30 pm

Zhilong wrote:If Wu suffered some defeat on one of the fronts, Sun Quan does not need to withdraw troops from the other front to reinforce, he always keeps troops in reserve. In any case i do not see Liu Bei making any in-roads unless something drastic happened. He was easily blocked by Lu Xun and his tactics were piss poor according to Lu Xun.


Yeah and now that the reserve is gone, if they suffer another defeat it would be terrible, but if they win they hold out longer. This time liu bei has Kongming and i doubt Lu Xun can hold out with Kongming for long.

Zhilong wrote:Take for example, when Shu surrendered to Wei, Wu attacked Baidi and Luo Xian held out while greatly outnumbered and suffering a morale hit of a surrendered state that had no help coming.


And how often does that happened? Not that much, it depends on who is commanding the armies, what the defenses, and resources are. As well as number of troops to co-ordinate more strategies.

Zhilong wrote:ZL was not even present at that campaign and i feel his presence would not necessarily affect the offensive effort much but i feel if he was there, they would not have suffered such a great defeat.


Are we talking about the campaign at Yi Ling? Im not talking about that. Im talking about if Liu Bei attacks Wu, and Wei also invades them.
Lu Fan will not be able to keep up with Sima Yi and suffer major blows by him. Lu Xun will probably do a much better job, but eventually be defeated by Kongming, and stress of 2 Larger forces invading at once.
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:52 am

This time liu bei has Kongming and i doubt Lu Xun can hold out with Kongming for long.


mrbeate is clearly taking novel, Zhilong what were you using? I'm guessing history. Because there is no way the historical Lu Xun would worry about facing historical Zhuge Liang

And how often does that happened? Not that much, it depends on who is commanding the armies, what the defenses, and resources are. As well as number of troops to co-ordinate more strategies.


Wu has the capable Lu Fan (or Sun Quan, a skilled commander when defending) and superior terrain, climate and naval forces on Wei front vs a not very skilled commander in Cao Pi. On Shu front, Lu Xun can be reinforced by Zhuge Jin and given Liu Bei's cautoius nature, which was on display at Yi Ling, (if Zhuge Liang is there, he will probably give bad advice like attack Sun Huan but don't wear armour :wink: ), Shu won't push far beyond Yi Ling even if Lu Xun has to withdraw a little, as Bei would want to deal with Sun Huan's stubborn defence first. Of course, this is assuming they don't treaty which would make more sense

Granted, in the novel Zhuge Liang would just summon a meteor storm to wipe out the entire Wu and Wei army to win.

Lu Fan will not be able to keep up with Sima Yi and suffer major blows by him. Lu Xun will probably do a much better job, but eventually be defeated by Kongming, and stress of 2 Larger forces invading at once.


therein lies the problem when we don't use the same source. In the novel, that may well be accurate, historically it is unlikely to be so
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