Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:24 am

SilentNinja wrote:
Crazedmongoose wrote:
SilentNinja wrote:This can become the greatest insultation in his life.....

How is that an insult? He doesn't have political clout. He's had no command experience for one, unlike Guan Yu. His rank at the time was also lower. The statement doesn't cast doubt to his martial prowess, loyalty or capability as a subcommander. Besides what do we know about Zhao Yun's administrative abilities? Liu Bei was at the end of the day an incredible political leader. He had a knack for knowing who to use and who's good at what. And you can tell his views quite clearly on his high profiled subjects according to his deployments. Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Huang Zhong, Wei Yan and Ma Chao are the good commanders. Zhao Yun is the peerlessly brave and loyal warrior. Fa Zheng and Pang Tong are the consummate military advisors. Zhuge Liang is the capable administrator, politician and diplomat.

That's what the novel and his unclearfied bio wants us to believe......dude, they're making Zilong sound like he's a NOBODY who is only good at fighting. Don't put too much confident on that. His bio never state any hardships in his story life....very incomplete description of Zilong. Alot for Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang, and Guan Yu(those were more acknowledged back then....) Chen Shou just have to write Zilong' bio like that to avoid spectulation and butcher Battle of Han Shui. It's the same story with ZZTJ more of a wei ist favored book....

Zhao Yun pretty much was a nobody, historically. His only real accomplishment was saving Liu Shan, and we all know how well that turned out. As for your claims that the ZZTJ is a Wei-ist favored book, please provide some facts to back it up. The SGYY we can clearly tell was Shu-ist because it changed a number of historical events to favor Liu Bei and his generals. The ZZTJ does no such thing.

Besides what do we know about Zhao Yun's administrative abilities?

He's the Governor of Jiang Zhou.....TRANSLATE: He's good at everything

Where are you getting this information from? Nothing I've read suggests that Zhao Yun ever held administrative rank. And even if he was appointed governor, that doesn't mean he had administrative ability.

He's had no command experience for one, unlike Guan Yu. His rank at the time was also lower.

He lead Liu Bei to replenish his force, nab a few more troops to Jing when Liu Bei escorted to Liu Biao. That's a command experience there, oh and how those who choose to oppose Yuan Shao in the northern suburbs of Ji Zhou(Where Zhen Ji lives) gone to Gongsun Zan in a private army.

Zhao Yun didn't accomplish much under Gongsun Zan.

Hm, if Liu Bei was an incredible political leader, he wouldn't have clouded his judgment over his motivation and the motivation of Zilong's to attack Wu intead of ignoring Emperor Xian abdication which endangers his own inheritance(to prematurely revive Han in Ba Shu was of little acknowledgement back then). So much for his inheritence babbling he keep whining on and on(Being a descendant of the imperial line). That attention hypocrite.....-_-

Liu Bei wasn't an incredible political leader. He was charismatic, a decent general and decent administrator.

You know what, most of the records felt Liu Bei's actions to avenge Guan Yu and recover Jingnan was justifiable and necessary.(Well, Guan Yu was widely regarded back then even with his big mistake falling for the plot and Wu was mostly disliked majorly*it's the catalyst of the 3kingdoms era*) I disagree.....
Keep on defending the recover land to make Shu look better logic, it was the only time the majority see Liu Bei's motivation on the wrong end of the stick.

That's a very novel-influenced position. Liu Bei's motivations were not all that good and pure and anyone who looks at his historical actions would agree, I believe.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby James » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:47 am

Qu Hui wrote:Zhao Yun pretty much was a nobody, historically. His only real accomplishment was saving Liu Shan, and we all know how well that turned out. As for your claims that the ZZTJ is a Wei-ist favored book, please provide some facts to back it up. The SGYY we can clearly tell was Shu-ist because it changed a number of historical events to favor Liu Bei and his generals. The ZZTJ does no such thing.

Chen Shou's assessment of Zhao Yun is far too favorable for him to be called a nobody. Also, given his documented accomplishments and the way he was received, it seems overly dismissive. And the SGZ does lean more in favor of Wei, as compared to other kingdoms, and that's because it was commissioned by Jin. You can find a pretty excellent assessment of this in Empresses and Consorts. Because the ZZTJ draws upon this, and other sources, it is likely to be somewhat more favorable in terms of Wei than any other faction, though calling it 'Weist' is certainly over-the-top.

Qu Hui wrote:That's a very novel-influenced position. Liu Bei's motivations were not all that good and pure and anyone who looks at his historical actions would agree, I believe.

Yep, I like the comparison that labels him as a slightly less successful Cao Cao. Now, that's certainly a compliment in reference to his skill and talent, but he's not the same person we read about in the novel.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:57 am

James wrote:
Qu Hui wrote:Zhao Yun pretty much was a nobody, historically. His only real accomplishment was saving Liu Shan, and we all know how well that turned out. As for your claims that the ZZTJ is a Wei-ist favored book, please provide some facts to back it up. The SGYY we can clearly tell was Shu-ist because it changed a number of historical events to favor Liu Bei and his generals. The ZZTJ does no such thing.

Chen Shou's assessment of Zhao Yun is far too favorable for him to be called a nobody.
And the SGZ does lean more in favor of Wei than in any other kingdom, and that's because it was commissioned by Jin. You can find a pretty excellent assessment of this in Empresses and Consorts. Because the ZZTJ draws upon this, and other sources, it is likely to be somewhat more favorable in terms of Wei than any other faction, though calling it 'Weist' is certainly over-the-top.

Yeah, I may have been a little harsh on Zhao Yun. I suppose that's the repressed anti-Shu, Wei-ist side of me speaking. As for that assessment, I'll take a look at my copy of E&C.

James wrote:
Qu Hui wrote:That's a very novel-influenced position. Liu Bei's motivations were not all that good and pure and anyone who looks at his historical actions would agree, I believe.

Yep, I like the comparison that labels him as a slightly less successful Cao Cao. Now, that's certainly a compliment in reference to his skill and talent, but he's not the same person we read about in the novel.

He and Cao Cao were very similar, I agree. I'm supprised that LGZ kept that scene where Cao Cao compares himself and Bei in the SGYY.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:04 am

I agree with the first bits of Qu Hui's replies.

SilentNinja wrote:Hm, if Liu Bei was an incredible political leader, he wouldn't have clouded his judgment over his motivation and the motivation of Zilong's to attack Wu intead of ignoring Emperor Xian abdication which endangers his own inheritance(to prematurely revive Han in Ba Shu was of little acknowledgement back then). So much for his inheritence babbling he keep whining on and on(Being a descendant of the imperial line). That attention hypocrite.....-_-

You know what, most of the records felt Liu Bei's actions to avenge Guan Yu and recover Jingnan was justifiable and necessary.(Well, Guan Yu was widely regarded back then even with his big mistake falling for the plot and Wu was mostly disliked majorly*it's the catalyst of the 3kingdoms era*) I disagree.....

Keep on defending the recover land to make Shu look better logic, it was the only time the majority see Liu Bei's motivation on the wrong end of the stick.



I'm sorry, saying all of that does not make Liu Bei less of a political leader. Recovering the Han Dynasty is a political ideal. Zhuge Liang, Xun Yu, Dong Zhuo and perhaps Yuan Shao believed in it. Late era Cao Cao, late era Liu Bei, Sun Quan etc. did not. It has nothing to do with political capability, which is seen by how well you manage factions, win support, manage your own people. It's about managing an entire faction with many competing interest groups and power blocs (and believe me, Shu had them as bad as maybe even Wei. Wu was a bit more tightknit overall). In those areas I believe only Cao Cao, Sun Ce, Sun Quan and Zhuge Liang rivalled Liu Bei. (Maybe not Zhuge Liang even, since Liu Bei saw that Ma Su wasn't to be used in a vital role and he turned out to be right. And Zhuge Liang's arrangements after his death, if they were true, seemed kind of lacking...me I would have given everything to Wei Yan and said "go knock yourself out kid :D ").


edit: yeah Cao Cao and Liu Bei were very similar, though they acted as differently as possible sometimes. They both in my opinion early on believed in restoring the Han dynasty. They both weren't from well established families. Both made their own life with a group of diehard supporters. Both were very charismatic and knew how to use people, and bonded people to them generally with great friendship. Both later on cared more about their own power than anything about the Han Dynasty. Only real difference as far as I'm concerned is that Cao Cao had a head start because his family was rich and he'd been in the political world of Han for a long time before Liu Bei was even known.

(One amusing anecdote I found was during Cao Cao and Yuan Shao's youth apparently them and a few friends on a dare once crashed a local wedding and kidnapped the bride, seriously they were the rich trust fund fratboys of their age)
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby SilentNinja » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:05 am

I love to comment on all this, but...sigh...

Just as I expected from Qu Hi reply. -_-

Where are you getting this information from? Nothing I've read suggests that Zhao Yun ever held administrative rank. And even if he was appointed governor, that doesn't mean he had administrative ability.

Are you really this dense in analying every...I repeat EVERY information on Zilong? They mentioned Jiangzhou in his bio since Zhuge LIang and Liu Bei were dealing with poor Liu Feng's fate...

Enjoy some of the near 'complete' bios of Wei generals while you're uninterest in Zilong's REAL talent. Don't waste my time with your anti-shuhan antics closeminded Wei ist....=/


[B]James wrote:[/b}Chen Shou's assessment of Zhao Yun is far too favorable for him to be called a nobody. Also, given his documented accomplishments and the way he was received, it seems overly dismissive. And the SGZ does lean more in favor of Wei, as compared to other kingdoms, and that's because it was commissioned by Jin. You can find a pretty excellent assessment of this in Empresses and Consorts. Because the ZZTJ draws upon this, and other sources, it is likely to be somewhat more favorable in terms of Wei than any other faction, though calling it 'Weist' is certainly over-the-top.

The Shu backlash was over-the-top....

And what do you expect of all the data it received was overly dismissive James? There's 1 Shu historian out of many Wei and Wus and he can't just show everything Zhao Yun done when Guan Yu, Zhuge LIang, and Liu Bei's presence was bigger to the other two kingdoms(Wei and Wu)

As for the other person's reply, Liu Bei and Cao Cao have the SAME political ideal, but Cao Cao's methods were arguably WRONG. It's too late to prove that now since Yi Ling exist.

It has nothing to do with political capability, which is seen by how well you manage factions, win support, manage your own people. It's about managing an entire faction with many competing interest groups and power blocs (and believe me, Shu had them as bad as maybe even Wei.

But there are consequences...
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby James » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:17 am

SilentNinja wrote:Are you really this dense in analying every...I repeat EVERY information on Zilong? They mentioned Jiangzhou in his bio since Zhuge LIang and Liu Bei were dealing with poor Liu Feng's fate...

Don't be mean. This isn't the forum for that. :)

SilentNinja wrote:Enjoy some of the near 'complete' bios of Wei generals while you're uninterest in Zilong's REAL talent. Don't waste my time with your anti-shuhan antics closeminded Wei ist....=/

I saw what you mentioned about Chen Shou butchering Zilong's biography. How did you come to this conclusion? It is a little sparse, as suggested by the volume of information added by Pei Songzhi, but when we're looking through the Sanguozhi translation with full annotations we get a more comprehensive picture. I like Zhao Yun and I'm usually quick to defend him from those 'just a bodyguard' accusations people like so much, but there's a valid argument to be made against him.

SilentNinja wrote:The Shu backlash was over-the-top....

The Shu backlash was over the top? What do you mean, exactly? I'm quite familiar with the composition of the Sanguozhi and other historic sources. It actually isn't very hard to get a comprehensive picture of much of the Three Kingdoms history, and the ZZTJ certainly is not over-the-top in terms of bias. The biggest problem with the poor Shu biographies is actually that Shu took horrible records.

SilentNinja wrote:And what do you expect of all the data it received was overly dismissive James? There's 1 Shu historian out of many Wei and Wus and he can't just show everything Zhao Yun done when Guan Yu, Zhuge LIang, and Liu Bei's presence was bigger to the other two kingdoms(Wei and Wu)

So your argument is that because Shu didn't keep as comprehensive a set of records that Zhao Yun must have accomplished far more in history? It's an interesting suggestion, but I'm not sure what speculation of value we could base on it. I do believe that people like Zhao Yun and Guan Yu must have been exceptional due to references, such as the glowing review Chen Shou gave Zhao Yun, or the way in which Cao Cao viewed Guan Yu, but I doubt many key events have been dropped completely from history.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby SilentNinja » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:49 am

James wrote:Don't be mean. This isn't the forum for that. :)

Wei ists don't care what a Zhao Yun fan says, no matter what my point refers. Sorry James, but you're going to have to ignore my stubborn attitude towards Wei ists, but I mean no harm to turn this into a flame war.

The Shu backlash was over the top? What do you mean, exactly? I'm quite familiar with the composition of the Sanguozhi and other historic sources. It actually isn't very hard to get a comprehensive picture of much of the Three Kingdoms history, and the ZZTJ certainly is not over-the-top in terms of bias. The biggest problem with the poor Shu biographies is actually that Shu took horrible records.

Ever since the novel and the records being translated in english, the western 3kingdoms community don't believe if any of the ShuHan officers were good to begin with. The different between the novel and history, what is really true and not intensify, James. It's not even funny....yeah, they took horrible records because they're the LOSING SIDE. It's modern common sense.


So your argument is that because Shu didn't keep as comprehensive a set of records that Zhao Yun must have accomplished far more in history? It's an interesting suggestion, but I'm not sure what speculation of value we could base on it. I do believe that people like Zhao Yun and Guan Yu must have been exceptional due to references, such as the glowing review Chen Shou gave Zhao Yun, or the way in which Cao Cao viewed Guan Yu, but I doubt many key events have been dropped completely from history.

Did I say they didn't keep it as comprehensive? Look, I believe historians tend to hide things or avoid putting effort to describe a historical figure the majority(Points at Wei and Wu historians) hardly believe. Writing a story of someone you haven't met before is very hard work and sometimes life threaten because of favoritism. You can base on it with the Bible.....(and I'm not joking as being raised by a Jehovah Witness)

Now, do you honest think Zhao Yun don't having any feelings of depression over Liu Bei's decision to attack Wu? It could neglect what others feel about Liu Bei's decision being justified to make Shu look tough. I HATE that logic, Zilong didn' t want to make Jiang Dong enemies anyway, but Liu Bei put his feelings over the consequence of Guan Yu's death and the Han dethronement you understand what I'm staying here admin? Chen Shou didn't bother to describe how Zhao Yun feel about Liu Bei's decision, so to have assist the usurper could futher insult Zilong's own motivation. He did NOT join Liu Bei for fame as the novel tried to portray him as.

I saw what you mentioned about Chen Shou butchering Zilong's biography. How did you come to this conclusion? It is a little sparse, as suggested by the volume of information added by Pei Songzhi, but when we're looking through the Sanguozhi translation with full annotations we get a more comprehensive picture. I like Zhao Yun and I'm usually quick to defend him from those 'just a bodyguard' accusations people like so much, but there's a valid argument to be made against him.

He wasn't good for NOTHING. What do you think I take him for compare to the guy who is SUPPOSE TO BE HIS FRIEND*points at Liu Bei*? A guy who believed in Liu Bei's inheritience whom Xuande spend time complaining his hardships towards it with that much influence he cause and met the Emperor.....-_- This is getting annoying to no end right now, because I already talked about this with a fellow Wu ist friend over the matter and all that Jing Zhou jazz between Liu bei's fraction and Jiang Dong.

Just check out what Sun Shang Xiang took both men for when they're trying their best to have her settle with them. Liu Bei barely understands tomboys and Zhao Yun seen too much tragedy with women(Points at Liu Bei's daughter and Chang Ban) Jiang Dong made a fool of the whole gratitude with Chi Bi while Cao Cao's fraction is still watching them.(How pointless the alliance could be as Cao Cao's ministers describe)
Last edited by SilentNinja on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:53 am

SilentNinja wrote:I love to comment on all this, but...sigh...

Just as I expected from Qu Hi reply. -_-

...I'm not quite sure if I should take this as a compliment or not, so I'll say one last thing before I move on to the rest of your post. I believe, that as a common curtesy in debate, one must reply to all the points of their opponents unless they can argue a point no further. That being said...

SilentNinja wrote:
Where are you getting this information from? Nothing I've read suggests that Zhao Yun ever held administrative rank. And even if he was appointed governor, that doesn't mean he had administrative ability.

Are you really this dense in analying every...I repeat EVERY information on Zilong? They mentioned Jiangzhou in his bio since Zhuge LIang and Liu Bei were dealing with poor Liu Feng's fate...

I'm not going to respond to this.

SilentNinja wrote:Enjoy some of the near 'complete' bios of Wei generals while you're uninterest in Zilong's REAL talent. Don't waste my time with your anti-shuhan antics closeminded Wei ist....=/

The only thing I'm going to say in regards to this is that I am a former Shu-ist who now tries to not show favortism to any of the kingdoms. That particular line wasn't supposed to be taken seriously and quite honestly, seeing Shu so idealized and Zilong raised up on some pedistal as an invincible warrior that can do no wrong gets a bit tiredsome after a while. I agree that he was brave and loyal, but beyond that I don't think that his talents were remarkable.

SilentNinja wrote:
[B]James wrote:[/b}Chen Shou's assessment of Zhao Yun is far too favorable for him to be called a nobody. Also, given his documented accomplishments and the way he was received, it seems overly dismissive. And the SGZ does lean more in favor of Wei, as compared to other kingdoms, and that's because it was commissioned by Jin. You can find a pretty excellent assessment of this in Empresses and Consorts. Because the ZZTJ draws upon this, and other sources, it is likely to be somewhat more favorable in terms of Wei than any other faction, though calling it 'Weist' is certainly over-the-top.

The Shu backlash was over-the-top....

Shu backlash is quite expected, actually, especially with all of the misleading about ther character of Liu Bei and his officers.

SilentNinja wrote:And what do you expect of all the data it received was overly dismissive James? There's 1 Shu historian out of many Wei and Wus and he can't just show everything Zhao Yun done when Guan Yu, Zhuge LIang, and Liu Bei's presence was bigger to the other two kingdoms(Wei and Wu)

Isn't it logical to think that perhaps, if Zilong had done something worth being noted, then it would have been recorded in the annals of history? I have to agree with James here- it's very unlikely that major events are missing from Zilong's bio. And if you want someone to blame for a lack of records, blame Zhuge Liang or the regents or Liu Shan for not having a court historian.

As for the other person's reply, Liu Bei and Cao Cao have the SAME political ideal, but Cao Cao's methods were arguably WRONG. It's too late to prove that now since Yi Ling exist.

They did, and that ideal had nothing to do with the revival of the Han. Both were talented, ambitious, charismatic warlords. Cao Cao's method was not particularly wrong, especially for the age in which they took place, though a few of his actions, particular his few massacres, were wrong.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby SilentNinja » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:01 am

Qu Hui...I'm not quite sure if I should take this as a compliment or not, so I'll say one last thing before I move on to the rest of your post. I believe, that as a common curtesy in debate, one must reply to all the points of their opponents unless they can argue a point no further. That being said...

I knew someone like you will object...


The only thing I'm going to say in regards to this is that I am a former Shu-ist who now tries to not show favortism to any of the kingdoms. That particular line wasn't supposed to be taken seriously and quite honestly, seeing Shu so idealized and Zilong raised up on some pedistal as an invincible warrior that can do no wrong gets a bit tiredsome after a while. I agree that he was brave and loyal, but beyond that I don't think that his talents were remarkable.

Well, that's your problem, not mine. It's up to you. There's no 'Bad' or "good' kingdom, just bad people. You favor the winning side(Wei) it NEVER changes.


Shu backlash is quite expected, actually, especially with all of the misleading about ther character of Liu Bei and his officers.

But, people like Zhao Zilong were honestly very good people.....


Isn't it logical to think that perhaps, if Zilong had done something worth being noted, then it would have been recorded in the annals of history? I have to agree with James here- it's very unlikely that major events are missing from Zilong's bio. And if you want someone to blame for a lack of records, blame Zhuge Liang or the regents or Liu Shan for not having a court historian.

Qiao ZHou was to blame, Chen Shou was his scholarly successor.... :roll: he didn't join Liu bei till AFTER Han Zhong war(Say good bye to a complete version of Han Zhong with more information on Battle of Han Shui)

They did, and that ideal had nothing to do with the revival of the Han. Both were talented, ambitious, charismatic warlords. Cao Cao's method was not particularly wrong, especially for the age in which they took place, though a few of his actions, particular his few massacres, were wrong.

OH really, then WHY ARE THE GOOD PEOPLE BEING TREATED LIKE CRAP ON BOTH SIDES.....-_-
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:15 am

SilentNinja wrote:
Qu Hui...I'm not quite sure if I should take this as a compliment or not, so I'll say one last thing before I move on to the rest of your post. I believe, that as a common curtesy in debate, one must reply to all the points of their opponents unless they can argue a point no further. That being said...

I knew someone like you will object...

Excuse me? What is that supposed to mean?

The only thing I'm going to say in regards to this is that I am a former Shu-ist who now tries to not show favortism to any of the kingdoms. That particular line wasn't supposed to be taken seriously and quite honestly, seeing Shu so idealized and Zilong raised up on some pedistal as an invincible warrior that can do no wrong gets a bit tiredsome after a while. I agree that he was brave and loyal, but beyond that I don't think that his talents were remarkable.

Well, that's your problem, not mine. It's up to you. There's no 'Bad' or "good' kingdom, just bad people. You favor the winning side(Wei) it NEVER changes.

Did you even read a word I wrote?

Shu backlash is quite expected, actually, especially with all of the misleading about ther character of Liu Bei and his officers.

But, people like Zhao Zilong were honestly very good people.....

I'm not referencing Zilong here; rather, I'm talking about Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang, Guan Yu, etc.

Isn't it logical to think that perhaps, if Zilong had done something worth being noted, then it would have been recorded in the annals of history? I have to agree with James here- it's very unlikely that major events are missing from Zilong's bio. And if you want someone to blame for a lack of records, blame Zhuge Liang or the regents or Liu Shan for not having a court historian.

Qiao ZHou was to blame, Chen Shou was his scholarly successor.... :roll: he didn't join Liu bei till AFTER Han Zhong war(Say good bye to a complete version of Han Zhong with more information on Battle of Han Shui)

*rubs his temples* Qiao Zhou wasn't a court historian. He was mostly in charge of education. As for Chen Shou, the SGZ was his personal journal that was only published after his death.

They did, and that ideal had nothing to do with the revival of the Han. Both were talented, ambitious, charismatic warlords. Cao Cao's method was not particularly wrong, especially for the age in which they took place, though a few of his actions, particular his few massacres, were wrong.

OH really, then WHY ARE THE GOOD PEOPLE BEING TREATED LIKE CRAP ON BOTH SIDES.....-_-

Calm down. You are getting far too worked up over what is supposed to be friendly and scholarly debate.

James, I think it may be time to split this entire discussion and merge it with the "Zhao Yun - Equal of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei?" thread.
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