Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:22 pm

Thanks Dong before i read your post i was going to explode, Zhuge liang was not a answer to everything.

Lol at the meteor comment.

Also about sima yi attacking Wu im not entirly sure but i dont think sima yi was involved TOO much in military expiditions until Zhuges northern campaign?
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Re: liu bei attacks wu, cao pi joins.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:54 pm

Sima Yi actually spent that Cao Pi vs Wu campaign in Xu Chang, presumably doing the Xun Yu role of looking after home maters. Sima Yi's military career really starts in Cao Rui's reign, first repelling an attack by Zhuge Jin, defeating Meng Da, taking part as one of 3 Wei armies in Shi Ting campaign before being really getting involved with fighting Shu.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby SilentNinja » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:58 pm

Lets see, the now selfish, irresponsible, and emotionally distraught guy who acts with without a choice attacks Wu and the usurper joins. Does that please every Wei ist in this historical discussion.....?

Dong Zhou:Zhao Yun perhaps, not sure he had enough political clout


This can become the greatest insultation in his life.....
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:31 am

Historically if Wei invaded it would be the reverse of the 215 Wu Shu war. Sun Quan would cede territory to Liu Bei in return for peace so he could fight off Wei. Most likely returning to the boarders before the 219 war. Sun Quan isn't dumb enough to think that he could fight a two front war any more then Liu Bei felt he could do the same in 215. Jing was just taken and wasn't secure enough to risk that kind of engagement. We see in 221 when Liu Bei attacks that there was a rebellion in Wu Ling against Wu (it was timed poorly as it begun as Liu Bei was retreating back to Yi)

Dispite Wu's strengths realistically they would be terrified of Wei invading at the same time as Shu is so they wouldn't take the risk. Liu Bei despite being angry will know that accepting land in exchange for peace will be the best choice. Besides he could simply do what Wu did previously. Accept the land and wait for any excuse to attack and grab more in the future. :lol:
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Lu Kang » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:47 pm

LBWG, I don't think that there would be an ceded as the situation is quite different from 215. In 215, will Liu Bei ceded claims to territory, it was only Sun Quan who ceded control (Ling Ling). I think that Sun Quan would be able to convince Liu Bei to back off using the same talented diplomats who kept Cao Pi from attacking.

Furthermore, if Cao Pi was at their doorstep, would a transfer of land even really be possible? It would only create an unnecessary weakness that neither Sun Quan or Liu Bei would be willing to create.

I think Liu Bei takes the wise road. He already has an army assembled for a long war. Let Wu take the brunt of Cao Pi's aggression, while redirecting Shu armies to attack Wei (most likely the territories lost by Meng Da and Liu Feng) or simply waiting. Then with minimal battle damage perhaps try to take advantage of the aftermath of the battle, either attack a weakened Wu or a War weary Wei in unfamiliar territory.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Blackdays » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:28 pm

I don't think the outcome would've been any different from history.

Scenario 1: Liu Bei attacks Jingzhou, Cao Pi attacks Yangzhou.

The Yangtze would simply prove too much of a defensive barrier for Wei to have conquer Sun's Yangzhou. Lu Xun would defeat Liu Bei as he did historically, and quickly send reinforcements from Jingzhou to reinforce the defense against Wei. Under Sun Quan's leadership and his many able generals, they are able to hold Wei off in time for Lu Xun and his reinforcements to arrive. Cao Pi would then retreat knowing that all advantages have been lost.

Scenario 2: Liu Bei attacks Jingzhou, Cao Pi flanks Lu Xun and attacks JiangLing from XiangYang.
Cao Pi would've conquered JiangLing, which would've been relatively empty since Lu Xun would've been busy fighting Liu Bei. Lu Xun manages to escape capture by fleeing south to MoLing. Lu Xun then hatches a plan to hand over the rest of southern Jing to Cao Pi, and retreats to Yangzhou from ChangSha with his army intact. Liu Bei, feeling betrayed by Cao Pi, and because he still wants Jingzhou, attacks Cao Pi's Jingzhou. Lu Xun then takes this perfect opportunity to attack Jing from Yang, taking it. Liu Bei's army, now demoralized and lacking food and supplies, retreats back to Yizhou and dies there.

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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby ChaosIncarnate » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:01 am

Conquering Wu would have just made Wei even more powerful. In such an unlikely scenario Wei would end up doing most of the work, and then be in a better position to conquer Shu afterwords-from at least two sides. Definitely not in Shu's best interest. Plus I doubt an alliance between Wei and Shu was even possible by that point.

If anything Shu should have tried to make peace with Wu after Guan's death, avoiding the disaster at Yi Ling, then the two southern powers might have had at least a slightly better chance against Wei/Jin.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:02 am

Not if Shu is so weak that it can't recruit officers, lost all clout and faces internal revolts
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:49 am

SilentNinja wrote:This can become the greatest insultation in his life.....



How is that an insult? He doesn't have political clout. He's had no command experience for one, unlike Guan Yu. His rank at the time was also lower. The statement doesn't cast doubt to his martial prowess, loyalty or capability as a subcommander. Besides what do we know about Zhao Yun's administrative abilities? Liu Bei was at the end of the day an incredible political leader. He had a knack for knowing who to use and who's good at what. And you can tell his views quite clearly on his high profiled subjects according to his deployments. Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Huang Zhong, Wei Yan and Ma Chao are the good commanders. Zhao Yun is the peerlessly brave and loyal warrior. Fa Zheng and Pang Tong are the consummate military advisors. Zhuge Liang is the capable administrator, politician and diplomat.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby SilentNinja » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:12 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:
SilentNinja wrote:This can become the greatest insultation in his life.....



How is that an insult? He doesn't have political clout. He's had no command experience for one, unlike Guan Yu. His rank at the time was also lower. The statement doesn't cast doubt to his martial prowess, loyalty or capability as a subcommander. Besides what do we know about Zhao Yun's administrative abilities? Liu Bei was at the end of the day an incredible political leader. He had a knack for knowing who to use and who's good at what. And you can tell his views quite clearly on his high profiled subjects according to his deployments. Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Huang Zhong, Wei Yan and Ma Chao are the good commanders. Zhao Yun is the peerlessly brave and loyal warrior. Fa Zheng and Pang Tong are the consummate military advisors. Zhuge Liang is the capable administrator, politician and diplomat.

That's what the novel and his unclearfied bio wants us to believe......dude, they're making Zilong sound like he's a NOBODY who is only good at fighting. Don't put too much confident on that. His bio never state any hardships in his story life....very incomplete description of Zilong. Alot for Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang, and Guan Yu(those were more acknowledged back then....) Chen Shou just have to write Zilong' bio like that to avoid spectulation and butcher Battle of Han Shui. It's the same story with ZZTJ more of a wei ist favored book....

Besides what do we know about Zhao Yun's administrative abilities?

He's the Governor of Jiang Zhou.....TRANSLATE: He's good at everything

He's had no command experience for one, unlike Guan Yu. His rank at the time was also lower.

He lead Liu Bei to replenish his force, nab a few more troops to Jing when Liu Bei escorted to Liu Biao. That's a command experience there, oh and how those who choose to oppose Yuan Shao in the northern suburbs of Ji Zhou(Where Zhen Ji lives) gone to Gongsun Zan in a private army.

Hm, if Liu Bei was an incredible political leader, he wouldn't have clouded his judgment over his motivation and the motivation of Zilong's to attack Wu intead of ignoring Emperor Xian abdication which endangers his own inheritance(to prematurely revive Han in Ba Shu was of little acknowledgement back then). So much for his inheritence babbling he keep whining on and on(Being a descendant of the imperial line). That attention hypocrite.....-_-

You know what, most of the records felt Liu Bei's actions to avenge Guan Yu and recover Jingnan was justifiable and necessary.(Well, Guan Yu was widely regarded back then even with his big mistake falling for the plot and Wu was mostly disliked majorly*it's the catalyst of the 3kingdoms era*) I disagree.....

Keep on defending the recover land to make Shu look better logic, it was the only time the majority see Liu Bei's motivation on the wrong end of the stick.
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