Alliance against Dong Zhuo, more or less a failure?

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Alliance against Dong Zhuo, more or less a failure?

Unread postby Zappa » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:18 am

This topics question might sound a bit weird, since the coalition managed to defeat Dong Zhuo twice and managed to kill Hua Xiong and force Lu Bu to flee.But seriously lets look at the facts the capital was burnt down,the emperor was taken to Chang An,Dong Zhuo and his staff all escaped to Chang An.The alliance actually disbanded after seizing Luo Yang or that what was left
after the fire and than decided to disband before DZ was death or the emperor was rescued, in fact they didnt achieve one of their goals.Good DZ died later but that was not due to the alliance since they couldnt have known that when they disbanded.

So the thread here is to discuss if the coalition was either a failure for achieving none of their goals or not.

Please post your opinions.
Last edited by Zappa on Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, actually just a failure?

Unread postby Stallion Fury » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:00 pm

The alliance never could achieve its goal, but at least it took the Luoyang area. But on second thought, the imperial seal that was found there led to the gradual break of the alliance, and the city was actually only a burnt crisp. But seeing the victories at Si Shui and Hu Lao Passes, I believe that the coalition wasn't a complete failure, because it at least could have dropped the enemy forces morale along with taking a large portion of their land.
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, actually just a failure?

Unread postby Zappa » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:23 pm

it at least could have dropped the enemy forces morale along with taking a large portion of their land.

Yes but what was that good for? Dong Zhuo was still alive and the emperor still his hostile.The land they seized was actually useless because it was to small to be devided among the warlords and the shaken moral?Well for a shaken army they ambushed Cao Cao quite well and after that they had no more big fights.
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, actually just a failure?

Unread postby Antiochus » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:00 pm

Well, I agree that the rebellion probably did not reach all its military goals, but it did on the other hand enforced a very feudal political climate that radically reduced Dong Zhuo's power. At the end of the said conflict, he barely hold anything besides the northwestern regions of China.

It can also be assumed that the dissolvment of his military and political forces are in a large part due to the alliance.
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, actually just a failure?

Unread postby Zappa » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:09 pm

At the end of the said conflict, he barely hold anything besides the northwestern regions of China.

Well actaully he never held much more thanthat.Just the Luo Yang region and the Chang An region nothing more and nothing less.However since those two were big and rich citys and DZ had the army of the emperor which was very strong
he was a threath.

It can also be assumed that the dissolvment of his military and political forces are in a large part due to the alliance.


Really in what way?
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, actually just a failure?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:16 pm

In that it managed to limit Dong's power and ensured he didn't interfere much, it was a success. In every other way, it was a massive failure with only Sun Jian emerging with credit to his abilities and Liu Yu/Cao Cao emerging with credit for morals. Started with a forged decree, finished with warlords murdering each other, wasn't much better inbetween
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, actually just a failure?

Unread postby Antiochus » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:25 pm

Zappa wrote:Well actaully he never held much more thanthat.Just the Luo Yang region and the Chang An region nothing more and nothing less.However since those two were big and rich citys and DZ had the army of the emperor which was very strong
he was a threath.


I guess what I should have said is that his influence was also reduced to what he personally held.

As we can remember, Dong Zhuo had the power to call any feudal lord to the Han throne if he needed them, he had the power and influence to give orders that, in general, would be followed by the other nobles. The rebellion results in a massive emancipation of the nobles in front of the throne and their submission to the emperor and the offices of the Han became much more symbolic.

In the end, the rebellion allowed almost all the nobles such as Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, Gongsun Zan, Yuan Shu, Liu Biao and Ma Teng to almost permanently cut themselves from the official Han political structure without having to fear any real repression.

Dong Zhuo was still a threat, of course. A tiger in his lair in his own right. But the rebellion declawed him and it would have been hard for him to regain the power over the rest of the nobles he had beforehand.

It can also be assumed that the dissolvment of his military and political forces are in a large part due to the alliance.


Really in what way?


Isolation.

Being unable to rely on any vassals appart those directly under his influence made his possesion of the emperor impossible to hold for very long. Unlike Cao Cao, who built his fiefs in a much more solid fashion, Dong Zhuo's forces lacked the air and space to be capable of operating efficiently. Think of Zhang Ji and Zhang Xiu who had to move pretty far off just to get resources out of north Jing (Zhang Ji died during one of those raids).

Also, Dong Zhuo was surrounded by officers who were more loyal to the court than to himself (*Wang Yun is a great exemple). The duality of his court will also cause him a lot of trouble...
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, actually just a failure?

Unread postby Zappa » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:49 pm

Isolation.

Being unable to rely on any vassals appart those directly under his influence made his possesion of the emperor impossible to hold for very long. Unlike Cao Cao, who built his fiefs in a much more solid fashion, Dong Zhuo's forces lacked the air and space to be capable of operating efficiently. Think of Zhang Ji and Zhang Xiu who had to move pretty far off just to get resources out of north Jing (Zhang Ji died during one of those raids).

Also, Dong Zhuo was surrounded by officers who were more loyal to the court than to himself (*Wang Yun is a great exemple). The duality of his court will also cause him a lot of trouble...


A great explaination here I really can see your point and seeing it from that point of view the alliance was not only a failure.
Still all this events seem to be the aftermath and I can imagine that this was not planed by the alliance which actually wanted to keep Han alive just without Dong Zhuo. Dong Zhuo beeing surrounded by unloyal officers was however no result of the alliance since the opposition against Dong Zhuo was very strong even before the alliance before.
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, more or less a failure?

Unread postby Antiochus » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:24 pm

True, but before the formation of the alliance, he could count on the support/goodwilled neutrality of the other lords, such as during his conflict with Ding Yuan. Afterwards, Dong Zhuo was pretty much confined in a small region with dozens of feudal lords just waiting for him to become a threat to reform in a single force. The Alliance and its aftermath left him no hope of outside help should someone attack him from the inside. Heck, most of his neighboors were waiting for a slip to destroy him and his successors.

In practical terms, he lost almost all of his influence outside of the territory held by his forces alone.
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Re: Alliance against Dong Zhuo, more or less a failure?

Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:01 pm

It depends on how you think thier main goal was .If their goal was to finish Dong Zhou's , getting rid of him , saving what was left of the Han then the alliance failed .If , however , their goal was to just limit Dong Zhou's influence on the area around him , then it was a success .

I would go for the second goal any day .It was only Sun Jian who fought hard against Dong Zhou's forces and that leads me to say that the other lords had no plans to get rid of Dong Zhou or at least not ALL OF THEM .
You can see this clearly with Yuan Shao and some others trying to replace the emeror with a man under their hands who was Liu Yu .

It is a shame seeing the lords fighting against each other and I can't see them surviving if Lu Bu did not kill Dong Zhou .
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