Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

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Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby Zappa » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:47 am

I had the idea for this thread when I was looking at Dong Zhuos biography.He brought it quite far in a time of chaos and also he was said to be very cruel (that was Cao Cao too) he also valued most of the old traditions like the three excellences and actually he was the last real Han minister since Cao Cao.I wounder how would it have been if he would have taken all of china would he still surpress his people we cant know.

So back to the topic was DZ only an evil tyrant?

Please post your thoughts.
Last edited by Zappa on Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only evil?

Unread postby tofu » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:41 pm

Dong Zhuo wasn't exactly "evil", just extremely selfish. He was willing to sacrifice thousands of other peoples' lives for his own benefit. He stepped all over and used people to get to his position, then manipulated the emperor to do his bidding. He was just like one of those villians that are in little kids' shows who want to take over the world.

On second thoughts, he was evil. :roll:
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:01 pm

I don't think Dong started out evil certainly, he treated his men well and was an able commander who opposed the eunuchs, apart from one mysterious sacking in his early days there isn't much to suggest he was evil mc evil dude. It is after he arrives at the capital, sees the place in flames and everything in a mess that it gets disputable, understandably he didn't trust the old guard to clean the problems up. After all, why should he? He seized control but then, I really doubt the gentry were going to be honest and wonderful given their own track records so I hardly count that as evil.

Dong was ruthless, he forced service, he deposed an emperor and early on it could be claimed he did what he felt best for the empire. He felt Xian (who technically should have been Emperor in first place) was more able then Bian, the Han needed the best officers it could get and the habit of gentry refusing jobs hurt the administration. At the time, Dong refused to give his family excessive rank but also showed a willingness to be brutal, killing Zhang Wen to prevent a prophecy killing him. He was a ruthless man who went over the edge to cruel and at some point, turned into a corrupt, brutal tyrant out of himself, the issue for me is when did he change?
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby Zappa » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:30 pm

I would say the change happened after he lost at Hu Lao he then probably realized that he was done for.He burnt Luo Yang down because of his anger and then fleed to Chang An were he just didnt change anymore.
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby HowSwiftThySword » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:23 pm

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
That's what happened to Dong.
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby Stallion Fury » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:14 pm

Dong Zhuo was not evil but rather quite virtuous nad generous in his younger days, distributing his wealth to others and refusing a couple of jobs just for the sake of his people. But I believe he became corrupted after his victory over the Ten Eunuchs and his taking over of the Han court. His ambition grew as he took Emperor Shao under him, and eventually it led to his disposing of the emperor and setting up a puppet. And thus he grew to be an evil tyrant as he executed and tortured innocnet people, such as the incident of Yangcheng where he killed all the males and claimed that they were all rebels. He became so cruel and violent that he later threw halberds at his own adopted son Lu Bu over a chambermaid, who is described in the Sanguo Yanyi as the adopted daughter of Wang Yun, Diaochan. His murder was only an obvious result of tyranny.
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby Zappa » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:07 pm

He became so cruel and violent that he later threw halberds at his own adopted son Lu Bu


Wasnt this more an act of frustration? Just like the Luo Yang burning thing which was an act of revenge.
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby Stallion Fury » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:53 pm

Well this kind of action started before the fight over the chambermaid, so Dong Zhuo did it due to his temper, which would easily blaze at anyone. It seemed that his son was the one who clashed with him the most, either that or he was half-hearted when he threw halberds and didn't really insist on killing Lu Bu. You see, Lu Bu could dodge any halberd that his father threw, and Dong Zhuo couldn't kill him with this method. OR he could have been too violent and actually wanted to kill Lu Bu, but only failed in each attempt. Either way, this was the start of the divide between Dong Zhuo and his son.
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby Shritzu » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:59 pm

HowSwiftThySword wrote:Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

So far...
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Re: Dong Zhuo not only an evil tyrant?

Unread postby Stallion Fury » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:09 pm

So far, and it will be a fact for as long as this world exists.
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