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Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:04 am
by Dong Zhou
Things hadn't got worse, it hadn't improved true but the outstanding issues had been settled so while things were shakey, Shu presumably thought there wasn't much reason for Wu to invade

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:05 pm
by James
Not much to add at this point!

Most anything I would have wanted to share has already been clearly expressed by Dong Zhou.

Zappa wrote:So it was afterall impossible to see the Wu thing coming?

Agreed with Dong Zhou that it was not impossible to foresee, but I would suggest that foreseeing it would have required a very strong and active distrust of Wu, to the point that the Shu folks would have expected them to do something bone-headed. Wu's betrayal, while brilliantly executed from the point of attacking Jingzhou and killing Guan Yu, was horribly shortsighted and a terrible mistake for the future of both kingdoms. Shu, and Guan Yu, likely expected that the alliance would be maintained at least enough that Wei could be opposed.

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:14 pm
by Zappa
for the future of both kingdoms


Shu lost Jing and Guan Yu while Wu lost an important allied is it that what you meant?

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:37 pm
by James
Zappa wrote:Shu lost Jing and Guan Yu while Wu lost an important allied is it that what you meant?

By ending their alliance they effectively ensured Wei would emerge the victor. Note that one of the most important orders of business for Zhuge Liang after the passing of Liu Bei was to reestablish the alliance with Wu. This is because for Wei to be defeated Wu and Shu had to cooperate.

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:42 pm
by Zappa
But the allaince was actually a big failure since both states never worked together against Wei not before Jing nor after Zhuge managed to make a alliance again.In fact I think Chi Bi was the only real cooperation between both.Except for the hei Fei invasion which was started by giving them a part of Jing.

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:51 pm
by James
Zappa wrote:But the allaince was actually a big failure since both states never worked together against Wei not before Jing nor after Zhuge managed to make a alliance again.In fact I think Chi Bi was the only real cooperation between both.Except for the hei Fei invasion which was started by giving them a part of Jing.

Well, you're wrong. Both kingdoms cooperated on many occasions both before and after the attack against Guan Yu. You don't seem much reference to it in the novel, but there's plenty in history. And coordinated attacks aside, that both countries were focusing their attention on Wei, instead of each other, is quite meaningful in itself.