Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Zhou Chie » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:39 pm

I find it justly judged if its critical, but then again I don't think much of his battle prowess, on the other hand I admire him for his political and administrative decisions, and his foreign policy regarding Wu was equally smart. So to my mind, his egotism (I think he had quite the ego) and his lack of success has a military leader adds to the fascination as he was only human, and to my mind I can't accept too much criticism of Zhuge, but I can't accept undue adulation. Don't ask, I don't always pretend to get my own opinions.
As for not being Cao Cao, sure but Cao Cao in foreign affairs was no Zhuge Liang, who knew how to handle such dealings, while Cao seemed to be permanently at war with everyone he encountered sooner or later, one reason I think Cao Cao in some regards is overrated despite my admiration for him too.
Back on topic though, Zhuge Liang does have his ambushes which he seems good at, considering how he got Zhang He, and he also seems capable of thinking, something which if someone is reigning him in, Jiang Wei he seems to sometimes forget to do.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:43 am

Zhou Chie wrote:As for not being Cao Cao, sure but Cao Cao in foreign affairs was no Zhuge Liang, who knew how to handle such dealings, while Cao seemed to be permanently at war with everyone he encountered sooner or later, one reason I think Cao Cao in some regards is overrated despite my admiration for him too.


On the contrary, I find Cao Cao great and foreign affairs, in terms of geopolitics, his only real lasting mistake perhaps being a failure to prevent the Sun-Liu alliance.

For somebody who was surrounded by enemies, he was fairly good at playing them off against each other whilst he grew one area at a time.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:53 am

Crazedmongoose wrote:
Zhou Chie wrote:As for not being Cao Cao, sure but Cao Cao in foreign affairs was no Zhuge Liang, who knew how to handle such dealings, while Cao seemed to be permanently at war with everyone he encountered sooner or later, one reason I think Cao Cao in some regards is overrated despite my admiration for him too.


On the contrary, I find Cao Cao great and foreign affairs, in terms of geopolitics, his only real lasting mistake perhaps being a failure to prevent the Sun-Liu alliance.

For somebody who was surrounded by enemies, he was fairly good at playing them off against each other whilst he grew one area at a time.


Agree with Crazedmongoose. Cao Cao does seem to have been able to dampen down the risk of a second front by use of diplomacy in the old days. Might sometimes come out of a diplomatic exchange the worst but he would secure his own flanks with it
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Shen Ai » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:56 am

I'll have to go with the other two guys here. I found Cao Cao quite adept at politics and dealing with the other warlords and kingdoms. Zhuge Liang was good, but as I said before, he wasn't as well rounded as Cao Cao.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Zhou Chie » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:37 pm

Fair enough, can't deny Cao Cao's skill at playing people against each other, despite the opinion that for a man who was such a talented genius he tended to make enemies like there was no tomorrow.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:15 pm

My thought on issues like this is that you have to look at circumstance. Once Cao Cao started going, the momentum helped propel him forward. That's the only explanation for long-term enemies like Zhang Xiu suddenly surrendering to him, something that is neither easily explained nor had anything to do with Cao Cao's talent. He conquered one enemy and then absorbed a bunch of personnel, soldiers, land and resources that enabled him to gobble up more and more. Some of this was due to his innate ability, some was due to his policies and some was due to the fact that success builds upon success exponentially.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby DragonAtma » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:54 pm

Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei were brilliant, but Sima Yi, Deng Ai, and Zhong Hui were also brilliant. Remember, Wei has something like four times as many people as Shu and (in theory) four times as many amazingly competent people. Even with Wu helping them out, a total Shu-Wu copnquest is still an uphill battle.

Comparing Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei, I have to side with Zhuge Liang simply because he was able to run both civil and military duties while Jiang Wei had to settle for one of the two. Maybe it would have been better if he stayed in Cheng Du and let Liao Hua and Zhang Yi run the army.

I will say, however, that I doubt either five expeditions in seven years or nine expeditions in sixteen years is sustainable; Shu just needed more time to recover and rebuild between them.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Zhou Chie » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:28 pm

Jiang Wei and the word brilliant don't go in the same sentence, as after a few losses, after being told to wait for an opportunity what did he do? Attack some more, all he did was attack continuously until Shu was all but begging Sima Wei to take over, while Zhuge Liang may have had difficulties with his attacks but he still kept Shu afloat.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Hyper90 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:09 am

Zhou Chie wrote:Jiang Wei and the word brilliant don't go in the same sentence, as after a few losses, after being told to wait for an opportunity what did he do? Attack some more, all he did was attack continuously until Shu was all but begging Sima Wei to take over, while Zhuge Liang may have had difficulties with his attacks but he still kept Shu afloat.


While Zhuge Liang has his Prime Minister post he had to admin both military and political affairs. After his 3 successors of PM position, there was no more talented officers to handle political affairs while Jiang Wei only focused on military matters. Then again, Liu Shan was pretty ignorant of what is happening inside and outside of Shu, therefore he just let Jiang Wei go on his campaigns. Plus, after the 3 PMs are gone, political affairs would go down and who would handle resources of Shu? Shu's resources are greatly drained by from the campaign but nobody else would make it up to solve the problem other than just look at the problem
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:58 am

There were talented administrative officers if Shu used them properly.

A non corrupted Shu would have been better placed to ride out Jiang Wei's excessive campaigning but I think the constant campaigning would have drained Shu, just more slowly.
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