Zhang He equal of Zhang Liao and Xu Haung?

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Re: Zhang He equal of Zhang Liao and Xu Haung?

Unread postby Cao Chao » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:05 pm

Zhang Liao is also known for a number of other victories aside from the absolutely stunner at Hefei, including the following from the SGZ bio: leading the main army and defeating Ta Dun at White Wolf Mountains, defeating a rebellion by the Di in the west, and defeating Lu Fan during one of the many conflicts between Wei and Wu.
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Re: Zhang He equal of Zhang Liao and Xu Haung?

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:41 am

Ahhh, I knew today was a good day to check SoSZ!

Zhang He:

SGZ:
-Gave correct advice to Yuan Shao.
-Vanguard along with Zhang Liao of the attack/defeat of Ye/Bo Hai/Yuan Tan/Liu Cheng.
-Accompanied Zhang Liao to defeat Chen Lan, Mei Cheng, and their posse of bandits Yu Jin was also present here; he was tricked by the bandits
-Defeated Ma Chao.
-Defeated Yang Qiu/took An Ding.
-Defeated Ma Chao and his bandit army. Again. Without a battle. Ordered by Xiahou Yuan to engage Ma Chao, He showed up and Ma Chao's troops fled.
-Cao Cao's plow during the campaign against Zhang Lu; vanguard mowing down everything in his path.
-Didn't mess up Hanzhong:
-Captured a few commanderies; was relocating people when he was routed by Zhang Fei. Essentially the only defeat in his career. However, as mentioned before he gained territory for Wei, he did not lose any. In fact he was promoted.
-Personally thwarted Liu Bei's sneak fire attack on his camp by appearing and meeting them halfway. In the middle of the night.
-After the death of Xiahou Yuan, he was given command of the Hanzhong operation by Cao Cao at the suggestion of Guo Huai (via an awesome speech). Initiated a major reorganization of the troops.
-Liu Bei remarked that although Xiahou Yuan was the leader and was killed, Zhang He was the actual threat.
-Pacified a bunch of areas with Cao Zhen
-Attacked Jiang Ling with Xiahou Shang, then defeated Wu general Liu Ah Deng along with Sima Yi
-Successfully defended against Zhuge Liang
-Pacified a few commanderies incited to rebel by Zhuge Liang
-Destroyed Ma Su
-Correctly predicted that Zhuge Liang would have to retreat due to lack of supplies before he would arrive;
-Promoted respect for the Five Classics and stuff in Cao Pi's Wei; somehow found the time to be a scholarly gentleman
-Correctly predicted an ambush/his own death, and advised Sima Yi against pursuing Zhuge Liang; Sima Yi ignored his advice

ZZTJ:
When Cao Pi(or was it Rui?) had all the big name generals (including Zhang Liao and Xu Huang) attack Wu, Zhang He was the only one who was able to actually gain territory. He conquered an island before being ordered to withdraw with the rest of Wei's army.

Zhang Liao:

SGZ:

-"discovered" by Ding Yuan for his martial prowess.
-At age 28, appointed chancellor of the state of Lu.
-After the defeat of Yuan Shao, got Chang Xi to surrender by talking to him and meeting his family; was reproached and then applauded by Cao Cao for his unorthodox methods.
-Did the same thing with a bunch of other bandits/rebels. Got to ride in Cao Cao's carriage!
-Vanguard of Cao Cao's attacks on Ye/Bo Hai/Yuan Tan/etc along with Zhang He.
-Conquered Jiangxia. All of it.
-Convinced Cao Cao to continue a seemingly losing battle against Yuan Shang; Cao Cao had a great victory.
-Told Cao Cao to focus on Shu when Liu Bei was approaching Liu Biao; Cao Cao did not believe that Liu Biao would employ Liu Bei. Zhang Liao was right.
-His troops rebelled. He quelled the rebellion, though.
-Pacified Chen Lang, Mei Cheng, etc along with Zhang He. Had an awesomely inspiring speech/leadership moment/victory against them.
-He Fei.
-Ordered to rescue Cao Ren from Guan Yu. By the time that he had arrived, Xu Huang had already done so.
-Won a battle against Sun Quan while on his deathbead by simply showing up.

-Convinced Guan Yu to join Cao Cao (either Guan Yu's SGZ or Cao Cao's . . . or is it in zztj?)

ZZTJ:
-Along with Xu Huang, went with Cao Cao to defeat Tadun

Xu Huang:

SGZ:

-Advised Yang Feng to escort the emperor.
-Advised Yang Feng to join Cao Cao. When he didn't, Xu Huang joined Cao Cao.
-Defeated some bandits.
-Two of Lu Bu's generals surrendered to Xu Huang.
-Killed another general
-Took Bai Ma
-Defeated Wen Chou's troops
-Defeated Zhu Bi
-Captured the city of Yi Yang without a battle. The arrow had a note that listed the pros and cons of working for Cao Cao. Han Fan, the prefect, then surrendered.
-Convinced Cao Cao not to massacre the people of Yi Yang, because then other previously-Yuan-ruled places/people will trust Cao Cao and follow the example of Yi Yang.
-Ambushed/captured 3 camps at Mao castle
-Helped Cao Cao defeat Yuan Tan along with Zhang Liao and Zhang He
-Defeated some more bandits in Pingyuan
-Defeated even more bandits at Fan
-Fought Guan Yu; engaged Zhou Yu (unclear in his SGZ whether he won or lost; would have to check Zhou Yu's SGZ)
-Captured Da Ling; defeated more bandits
-"comforted the people of Hedong" when Han Sui and Ma Chao attacked (he gave them wine and meat; allowed them to pray to their ancestors)
-Advised Cao Cao to let him defeat anyone who may be blocking their way through Tong Pass when Cao Cao doubted his own ability to get through Tong Pass to defeat Ma Chao; defeated Liang Xing and thus Cao Cao was able to defeat Ma Chao
-Defeated some more barbarians with Xiahou Yuan (and possibly with Zhang He)
-Killed Liang Xing this time
-Killed some more Barbarians during the campaign against Zhang Lu; rescued Zhang Shun
-Stationed at Hanzhong with Xiahou Yuan and Zhang He:
-Destroyed Liu Bei/Chen Shi's blockade of a very important road, causing Chen Shi's troops to jump off of a cliff rather than fight Xu Huang
-Sent to rescue Cao Ren from Guan Yu:
-He had inexperienced troops, so made camp in, like, a side-area, while waiting for reinforcements to arrive. He pretended to dig trenches to indicate that he was going to cut off Guan Yu's troops from the rear; this caused Guan Yu's troops to burn their camps and retreat. He captured Yan.
-Tricked Guan Yu into believing that he was going to attack his camp at Weitou, so Guan Yu went there; attacked Guan Yu's camp at Shizhong instead; defeated Guan Yu when Guan Yu arrived
-Chased Guan Yu, charged into his troops and scared them; many of them drowned in the river instead of fighting Xu Huang
-Attacked and defeated Liu Bei at Shangyong along with Xiahou Shang
-Defeated Zhuge Jin
-Died of illness
-Had perfectly obedient and ordered troops. Was not very social. Wanted a simple burial.

ZZTJ
-Defeated Han Meng and burned his supplies during the campaign at Guandu
-When he camped his army 30 feet from Guan Yu's siege, he dug tunnels into the city and shot Cao Ren arrows with notes in order to exchange news and information.
-When he chased Guan Yu into his own encampment and defeated him, he killed two of Guan Yu's officers.
-This battle to 'save Fan and Xiangyang' was, according to Cao Cao, won because of Xu Huang, who overcame unsurmountable (insurmountable?) odds to achieve a spectacular victory.


Okay:

So I don't really see why it's even a question whether or not Zhang He was as able as Zhang Liao and Xu Huang. All three were unbelievably successful.

Their ranks when Cao Pi ascended the throne were: 1)Zhang Liao: General of the Front 2) Xu Huang: General of the Right 3) Zhang He: General of the Left.

Zhang Liao commanded Zhang He several times; Many of the campaigns in which all three fought were led by Cao Cao (or Xiahou Yuan). That is, all three were working together in some form or another during a large portion of their recorded victories.

Zhang Liao and Zhang He were both commanders-in-chief; Zhang Liao appointed as the commander in He Fei; Zhang He appointed as the commander of Hanzhong (which would mean that he commanded Xu Huang), but only after Xiahou Yuan died and until Cao Cao arrived.

Zhang Liao charmed his way to countless victories and inspired Cao Cao to wage many other winning battles; Xu Huang won through clever, unique tactics and convinced rebels to join Cao Cao using reason; Zhang He was feared by Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang for his military ability, his biggest, most famous loss still earned him a promotion, and he was the only one out of the three to gain ground in that later battle against Wu. All three were able to make enemy troops/commanders surrender by simply existing.

The question isn't about Zhang He's worthiness compared to Zhang Liao and Xu Huang -- I mean, granted, I don't have the ability to look up the SGZ bios of everyone mentioned in each of THEIR biographies, but I would personally have a very hard time trying to figure out which of the three was the best. (That would also be impossible without knowing their individual contributions when they were working together.)
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