Why do we view the YTR as negative?

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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby James » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:04 am

Dong Zhou wrote:still not seeing the painted negatively thing though

How so?
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:16 am

They seem painted as rebels stirred up by a faith healer against a failing government rather then some mass evil of banditry and evilness. If anything they get overatted as part of Han's fall when, but for a few things like all he 3kingdom warlords in it and He Jin's appointment, it was pretty insignificant and easily destroyed
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby Zappa » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:23 am

Dong Zhou wrote:They seem painted as rebels stirred up by a faith healer against a failing government rather then some mass evil of banditry and evilness. If anything they get overatted as part of Han's fall when, but for a few things like all he 3kingdom warlords in it and He Jin's appointment, it was pretty insignificant and easily destroyed


Im not quite sure if I get this right,but do you mean that the YTR actually never played such a big role in the era then it is often said?
As the world changes,war comes and goes and with it might,wealth,right,freedom and land changes its owner,however the only thing that will always remain is the death,that comes with it.
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:25 am

Yep, it is a nice starting point for the novel and all since Sun Jian, Cao Cao and Liu Bei all fought in it but it had little impact on the Han's collapse
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby Zappa » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:33 am

Yes your right it was a fine intro though.

Would you consider Dong Zhuos rise and fall as bigger impact on the Hans collapse?
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:50 am

I think the Han was doomed before the Turbans, the gentry were turning it's back on the Han as the people had long before, the court was bankrupt, it's administration now unstable as the top roles rotated, One of the few things keeping the Han alive was the army and their skilled generals like Dong who drove back invasions and crushed revolts time and time again. Maybe if He Jin hadn't been killed, he would have bought some more time but on his death the court would fall into bad habits again

Dong affected the timing of the Han's collapse but he could have been a saint and would still have faced that mass Coalition. Power was usually through patronage and political ability, whoever had the most supporters and the highest favour had the advantage but Dong, by taking power through having a larger army (clever won) then his rivals, changed the rules. Suddenly everyone had the idea of taking the capital by force so rushed home to raise armies, Dong's filling of the vacuum after He Jin's death was the final nail in the Han coffin
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby James » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:08 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Yep, it is a nice starting point for the novel and all since Sun Jian, Cao Cao and Liu Bei all fought in it but it had little impact on the Han's collapse

I agree with this. The Yellow Turbans were a problem which needed to be handled, but they were a byproduct of a much much greater problem with the Han Dynasty. When attributing the Yellow Turbans with a degree of success against the Han government one should keep in mind that they were not tearing holes through the central Han government, but rather that the Han government had sent armies out to tear holes through them (something they did a particularly good job of).

It certainly had an impact on things to come, though.
It got some important players invititations to perform on center stage.
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby Iain » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:52 am

The Yellow Turbans were a force of nature if you like that our various heroes in the 3k novel (Cao, Bei, Jian) had to show their mettle against, like has been mentioned by others it was a great staring point in the book and followed by the rise of Dong and Lu Bu a nice reunion of those three sides we would often return and read about throughout the book.
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby Mestre Will » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:22 am

That is super easy to describe:
History is write by the winner , the one who emerge victorious always claim be the good side.

See other people rebelion who actualy win and are not see as bad :
USA rebelion to independence
France popular war
Most of America countries independency acts
Even the Great Russian nation war who end in URSS (will depend alot , it change to people to people but in major it is not see as bad , URSS begin the "wrong path walk" after Stalin)

Just to name a few exemples , however history is brutal when the rebel lose , there places in the medieval times that even claim the rebel are the own devil army who have been defeated by the justice.

You see , to history good and bad is in realy winner and lose , there is just a very small number of cases where the lose is see as good.

Just imagine if they have win history will tell about a corrupt dynasty who suffer a coup by the people army and Zhang Jiao as great man who lead people against evil.
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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:04 am

Just imagine if they have win history will tell about a corrupt dynasty who suffer a coup by the people army and Zhang Jiao as great man who lead people against evil.


Yet history does say that he did lead a downtrodden people against their corrupt masters anyway and they still get little sympathy.
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