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Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:11 pm
by Dong Zhou
If it had taken a long time? They waited years and only went to battle after being discovered plotting. Once the war started, the exact element against the Turbans was time, they had to beat the Han as quickly as possible, the Turbans relied on numbers and speed. As soon as the initial surge died down, the Han just brought in it's experienced, better equipped and in many cases better led professional armies out to deal with the problem, from that point on the Turbans were in trouble

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:44 pm
by the glorious sun jian
Dong Zhou wrote:If it had taken a long time? They waited years and only went to battle after being discovered plotting. Once the war started, the exact element against the Turbans was time, they had to beat the Han as quickly as possible, the Turbans relied on numbers and speed. As soon as the initial surge died down, the Han just brought in it's experienced, better equipped and in many cases better led professional armies out to deal with the problem, from that point on the Turbans were in trouble

From what I understand , They took long years spending them on endless plots , while They needed more years to get ready .From the point they were discovered , they were no match for the Han forces .

Longer time = Weaker Han =More people to gain = maybe a successful plotting .

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:01 am
by Dong Zhou
then how was it poorly executed?

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:44 pm
by Sima Hui
The YTR was definitely viewed as negative in the official histories because such chronicles were written by the landed gentry who had vested interests in seeing docile, non-rebellious peasants who would stay in their "rightful" place in society; i.e. at the bottom of the heap. Added to this was the traditional Chinese belief in filial piety; a good son does not disobey his father, a good person does not betray his emperor. Thus, rebellions in Chinese history, especially when they fail, have traditionally been seen as pretty diabolical things.

The sociological implications also help to make them look bad; the raping, the pillaging and the killing the rebels did on the way, as unruly soldiers sadly tend to do, also contribute to their image of negativity, as James mentioned.

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:10 am
by Lady Wu
Sima Hui wrote:The YTR was definitely viewed as negative in the official histories because such chronicles were written by the landed gentry who had vested interests in seeing docile, non-rebellious peasants who would stay in their "rightful" place in society; i.e. at the bottom of the heap. Added to this was the traditional Chinese belief in filial piety; a good son does not disobey his father, a good person does not betray his emperor. Thus, rebellions in Chinese history, especially when they fail, have traditionally been seen as pretty diabolical things.

+1

The Chinese version of "History is written by the victors" is "Those who win are kings; those who lose are bandits." Han was founded by basically a peasant rebellion, but history praised Liu Bang for overthrowing the despotic Qin. I suspect if the YTR was successful, Zhang Jiao et al would have been praised for overthrowing a corrupt, eunuch-run regime. Plus they could also claim the Mandate of Heaven (i.e. "we won only because Heaven was on our side, which means Heaven had already sanctioned our rule due to our righteousness" etc.) after the fact.

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:56 am
by Zappa
Yes thats true I mean History is always made by winners.Napoleon for example was reat too but when he lost eveyone thought hes crazy, if he would have won, everyone would have thought different.The YTR is same they fought for the right cause and if they would have won Zhang Jiao would have been a kind of messias and this whole war period wouldnt have happened.However he lost and thus the government made a villein out of him a murder who only wants to destroy but well as always history is never 100% correct.

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:23 pm
by James
Zappa wrote:Yes thats true I mean History is always made by winners.Napoleon for example was reat too but when he lost eveyone thought hes crazy, if he would have won, everyone would have thought different.The YTR is same they fought for the right cause and if they would have won Zhang Jiao would have been a kind of messias and this whole war period wouldnt have happened.However he lost and thus the government made a villein out of him a murder who only wants to destroy but well as always history is never 100% correct.

The issue isn't quite so black-and-white. Regardless of whether Zhang Jue's cause was successful, or a failure, the destruction and misery spread by his disorganized band of brigands across China would have probably been recorded. Successful or not, Zhang Jue lost control of his army and they *truly* became bands of brigands. It isn't just a label that has been thrown at them.

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:47 pm
by Zappa
Which army is perfect? It often happens soldiers begin to plunder but still this acts werent recorded because the army was victorious.

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:58 pm
by James
Zappa wrote:Which army is perfect? It often happens soldiers begin to plunder but still this acts werent recorded because the army was victorious.

All Chinese armies from this period were generally a rag-tag group, but there are striking differences from one to the next in terms of organization, and much of this is a direct reflection of their leader. Generally you'll find that the armies which did emerge victorious in one of these war-torn periods were more experienced, had much better leaders, were well-supplied and well-equipped (for the era) and were far more disciplined.

There is a large difference between the armies of, say, Cao Cao, and the Yellow Turbans. Cao Cao's men were generally uniformly equipped with a good quality of gear (for the era), while the Yellow Turbans salvaged whatever they could from battlefields and rarely enjoyed uniform quality equipment. Cao Cao was a skilled leader, who knew how to use his men, and through discipline and order could maintain control where he went. The Yellow Turbans were generally led by poor 'commanders' who had little control over the destruction, robbery, rape and death they spread where they went. Zhang Jue had little control over his movement, and it became something people rallied to just to rebel. His principles were lost upon them.

This isn't about which army was perfect at all. But they are not the same.

Re: Why do we view the YTR as negative?

Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:26 pm
by Dong Zhou
There were troops or times were troops lost control, Wei's Qingzhou troops and Liu Zhang's Dongzhou troops were infamous for it, Lu Bu lost control of his men a couple of times, Liu Bei's men turned to cannibalism under desperate circumstances. So the winners were recorded for pillaging armies

The Han army was still a (generally) well equipped and skilled fighting machine until Dong's death when the army effectively collapsed due to differing factions, the Turbans were always going to lose if their momentum was stopped. All He Jin had to do was secure passes, gather up three armies and tell his commanders "go deal with it" and that was enough. There were one or two Turban guys who had some success but only one general seems to have trained his troops, Zhang Liang and he was the only Turban to meet with much success until his troops ran out of steam

still not seeing the painted negatively thing though