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Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:55 pm
by Dong Zhou
So the last quote you have of him being drunk is Pi's agents soon after Pi took over? That is not his whole life is it? After that point, the sgz talks of Cao Zhi's behaviour in terms of despair and frustration, of desperate attempts to get work (is that a lazy thing?) not of drink or even of error. Therefore your claim that if he wasn't such a lazy drunk his whole life. is false and is an unfair attack. Your latest post acknowledges he changed his ways and wasn't used, that does not make him lazy or a drunk during that period so he can't be called a lazy drunk for the whole of his life.

If you limited the attacks about being a lazy drunk to the times where he was a drunk, that's fair enough. His whole life however is unfair.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:15 pm
by Garfunkel
I see your point that in his youth he wasn't, he displayed admirable intelligence and literary skill. However, during the time Cao Cao really wanted to prep him as his heir and give him the opportunity to grow and develop into a ruler, he was found to be completely void of ambition, and drinking often.

Several times in the SGZ it mentioned his failure of drinking to excess, therefore, it is not uncalled for to say he is a drunk.

He wanted nothing to do with positions of power, he did not want to succeed his fathers legacy, he did not want to be even a small part of his administration. He did not make any effort whatsoever to do so, that to me, is laziness. You may simply call it a complete lack of ambition, others call it lazy. Therefore, I can call him a lazy.

After Cao Cao died, he no longer had a life, it was gone, he would never have the opportunity to do anything with his talents other than putting brush to parchment, the 13 years he lived afterwards were leaves in the wind to me(aside from his work). The only thing I could possibly akin it to would be Li Yan after ZGL died, there was no way he was ever going to come back(though that is still a poor analogy as he died soon after). Therefore, his life ended after Cao Cao died. Therefore, he was a lazy drunk his entire life.

These 3 statements are not to be contested, it is clear I will not convince you otherwise, nor will you be able to convince me. Logic can be used to favor both sides, therefore I am no longer responding to this debate as it has become a senseless argument. You are a staunch defender of his integrity, skill, and efforts to change his life. I see those admirable points, but I feel they are greatly overshadowed by his displacement as the heir apparent.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:40 pm
by Dong Zhou
I see your point that in his youth he wasn't, he displayed admirable intelligence and literary skill. However, during the time Cao Cao really wanted to prep him as his heir and give him the opportunity to grow and develop into a ruler, he was found to be completely void of ambition, and drinking often.

Several times in the SGZ it mentioned his failure of drinking to excess, therefore, it is not uncalled for to say he is a drunk.


Agreed.

He wanted nothing to do with positions of power, he did not want to succeed his fathers legacy, he did not want to be even a small part of his administration. He did not make any effort whatsoever to do so, that to me, is laziness. You may simply call it a complete lack of ambition, others call it lazy. Therefore, I can call him a lazy.


Not entirely sure I agree but see where your coming from.

After Cao Cao died, he no longer had a life, it was gone, he would never have the opportunity to do anything with his talents other than putting brush to parchment, the 13 years he lived afterwards were leaves in the wind to me(aside from his work). The only thing I could possibly akin it to would be Li Yan after ZGL died, there was no way he was ever going to come back(though that is still a poor analogy as he died soon after).


Not an active life, no. Might be better to use the word career though, otherwise agree.

Therefore, his life ended after Cao Cao died. Therefore, he was a lazy drunk his entire life.


This is where the disagreement comes in.

For his life to have ended would be that he stopped breathing. His career was dead, his best days behind him, his life a relatively miserable existence but he was still alive. To say he was a lazy drunk his whole life means that he was a lazy drunk till the day he died which, as you agree is simply not true. I see what you mean now but you need a new phrase for it. Political life might work. Career another. Most of his life

I'll withdraw the slander remark I made becuase it is clearly an issue of wording rather then intent from you. So I apologise.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:56 pm
by Shen Ai
I will have to say that his treatment at the hands of his brother was cruel and wrong, but not unexpected. I really blame him too much for his failure to make an effort for succession, but really, if you don't have ambition, why bother fighting for it. Maybe he thought his big brother wouldn't go to such extremes to destroy his life.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:15 pm
by Garfunkel
I'll withdraw the slander remark I made becuase it is clearly an issue of wording rather then intent from you. So I apologise.


I find it very difficult to express myself properly in English. I use a lot of idioms improperly, my sentence structure is confusing, and I frequently google words to try make sure I am using them correctly but It's never easy, so there is no need to apologize.
Shen Ai wrote:I will have to say that his treatment at the hands of his brother was cruel and wrong, but not unexpected. I really blame him too much for his failure to make an effort for succession, but really, if you don't have ambition, why bother fighting for it. Maybe he thought his big brother wouldn't go to such extremes to destroy his life.


Zhi didn't seem to have the paranoia that plagued his father, brother, and nephew.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:05 pm
by Shen Ai
Evident by the fact that he never executed his trusted generals or tried to strangle maid when they woke him.

Cao Zhi might have been great, but like his brother, Pi, who never really proved himself in the long run and Cao Ang, he remains a great big, "What if" guy.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:08 pm
by ROTKobsessed
A lot of people saying Cao Ang - I'd have to completely disagree:

for Cao Ang to succeed he'd have to not save Cao Cao - this would mean :
1- the reason everyone picked him (saving cao cao) would not have happened, he would never have completed a heroic deed
2- he would inherit a far weaker army with less lands than any of the others would, wei may never have been established under his leadership