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Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:12 pm
by Garfunkel
Shen Ai wrote:Hahaha, so you believe that theory on Chong?

Jia Xu would support Ang as would Xun Yu while he still lived so Cao Pi would lose some people. Jia Kui and Sima Yi would follow suit if they deemed Ang worthy.

I can see Ang at least loosely trusting his brothers. Maybe he would give Zhang and Pi and Gun some ranks.


If Ang didn't completely screw up somewhere down the road I'm sure it would be a fairly peaceful transition. I wouldn't be surprised if he gave rank to the others, the officers will always consider Ang king and without them there would be no way to effectively replace him.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:15 pm
by Shen Ai
The army controls all of course, unless you are a very clever man. Immensely clever.
Ang is not really evaluated so we can't judge what his reign would be like, but he couldn't be as paranoid as Cao Pi surely?

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:19 pm
by Garfunkel
It's hard to say, I think everyone in power, especially the Cao clan, has at least an acute case of paranoia. The stress of managing an empire, no matter who you have or how many talented under your command, is enormous.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:21 pm
by Shen Ai
Yes it did seem to be family related. Goodness they needed a geneticist to go back and take some samples. Their genes must be messed up! I mean the early deaths, the violence against women, the paranoia and the cunning. Where did it come from?!

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:22 pm
by Garfunkel
Power pretty much contributes to all of those lol

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:24 pm
by Shen Ai
Yeah, but ambition and something hereditary must as well.
if they could clone Cao Cao and put him in the PRC nowadays. The results would be shocking.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:11 am
by Dong Zhou
Garfunkel wrote:He was 28 when cao cao died and only lived 12 years after that. To me he had the opportunity to do something great when Cao Cao held him in high regard. He didn't care, he squandered his youth in drink, but because he never had the opportunity after his youth, he lost his "life" to the cup. His poetry aside, he wasted his "entire" life. I am very antagonistic when it comes to "drunks" because it invariably destroys other peoples lives. From my point of view, he wasted his life(again aside from the poetry).


That isn't what you said though. You said if he wasn't such a lazy drunk his whole life.

I agree he wasted his youth but feel sorry for him, he did turn himself around and got no chance to test his talents.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:52 am
by Garfunkel
Dong Zhou wrote:
Garfunkel wrote:He was 28 when cao cao died and only lived 12 years after that. To me he had the opportunity to do something great when Cao Cao held him in high regard. He didn't care, he squandered his youth in drink, but because he never had the opportunity after his youth, he lost his "life" to the cup. His poetry aside, he wasted his "entire" life. I am very antagonistic when it comes to "drunks" because it invariably destroys other peoples lives. From my point of view, he wasted his life(again aside from the poetry).


That isn't what you said though. You said if he wasn't such a lazy drunk his whole life.

I agree he wasted his youth but feel sorry for him, he did turn himself around and got no chance to test his talents.


I still stand by my previous statements. I have very little patience with people who abuse alcohol, especially those who are talented. My opinion of Cao Zhi is harsher than most of the era, I do not feel sorry for him, at all. He was given ample opportunity by his father to change his ways, he didn't. If he wasn't such a lazy drunk his whole life may seem out of line to you, to me its actually a lenient statement.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:04 pm
by Dong Zhou
So making stuff up about a person becuase he had a vice you don't like is lenient? If I dislike certain avatar's, can I make up stuff about that person to? Or is there some sort of code for when slandering people becomes acceptable and when it isn't?

I get not liking a particular vice, though I think drinking isn't as bad as other vices if the only person it hurts is yourself, and thus not a particular person. I don't get why you can't just use legitimate criticism to express said dislike.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:49 pm
by Garfunkel
Dong Zhou wrote:So making stuff up about a person becuase he had a vice you don't like is lenient? If I dislike certain avatar's, can I make up stuff about that person to? Or is there some sort of code for when slandering people becomes acceptable and when it isn't?

I get not liking a particular vice, though I think drinking isn't as bad as other vices if the only person it hurts is yourself, and thus not a particular person. I don't get why you can't just use legitimate criticism to express said dislike.


Cao Cao would have made Cao Zhi heir many times over if only Cao Zhi were less wanton in his ways and more moderate in his drinking...Zhi never expressed interest in contending for heirship...Once, Cao Zhi was coursing through the streets in his carriage, and exited the city by the Sima Gate...Cao Zhi was so drunk at that time that he could not take the orders...surveyors once accused Cao Zhi of being “intoxicated and arrogant, threatening the messengers of the Emperor.”... died at the age of 41 as a frustrated and depressed man, never having held an important position in government.


All taken from the SGZ. I didn't make up anything. I made a bold statement in saying he was a useless drunk his whole life because after he changed his ways he no longer HAD a life, there was NOTHING he could do to change the past or affect his future as far as positions in the government were concerned. Perhaps rather than accusing me of being slanderous you would care to enlighten me with evidence to the contrary?

Edit: Just to clarify my view on Cao Zhi. He was a very talented person, who could have been much, much more. I hate to see talent wasted. For that I admit I am overly critical of his faults.