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Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:38 pm
by Dong Zhou
There is no evidence left of what Ang studied or his interests, I would assume his education had or would have covered civil affairs.

Liu Zong surrendered because he had little choice, Liu Biao had performed minor miracles to keep hold of Jing but now, it was untenable with Cao Cao marching in, Wu likely to invade, Liu Zhang possibly as well, Liu Qi and Liu Bei both holding important defence points were opposed to Zong. 3-5 armies vs Liu Zong?

Sun Quan turned the south from a place of exile, a back water, to one of the most prosperous regions in all of China, and expanded as far as Thailand, you don't do that by being mediocre or even merely good, not least considering the leadership and charisma it must have taken to hold such a volatile and unruly officer core. Would he have taken Jian Dong? No but he was still a gifted man and an able warlord

The successful warlords of the time, even those now deemed unsuccessful due to their eventual defeats, were incredible men who forged what small resources they had into a kingdom/state, winning the loyalty of men as they built up their army, their lands and officer core. Their successors were coming in generally without having had much chance to win over the officer core (Cao Pi had spent years at the capital working to win favour, Liu Shan had spent a year ruling in Liu Bei's stead, they were the exception not the rule to having had that time) and often quite simply, as able as some of them were (Cao Pi, Cao Rui, Yuan Tan, Yuan Shang, Liu Shan even) at certain things, they were inheriting their kingdom from men who were among the best of the time so of course they would find it difficult to step up to that. Some had personality flaws, some were not able at all or lacked something in a certain direction, some simply never stood a chance due to situation. Does this mean they were poorly educated? No and in most cases, that would be rather unlikely, a warlord after all needs his successor to be able to carry on his work

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:36 pm
by Zappa
But Liu Shan was said to be a poor ruler or? He had no skills or experience Zhuge Liang "saved" Shu at that time while Liu Shang had no idea what to do.With him as ruler the land would have fallen much earlier dont you think so? Pi wass unable to use Weis strengh and advantage and only did internal things.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:04 pm
by Dong Zhou
During his life time and for a bit after, the description of Liu Shan was mediocre and kindly rather then stupid, the novel pretty much does a savage job on him. When Liu Bei died, I imagine he was confident Shu wouldn't collapse, Shan was well educated, had been doing well at his studies of late and had actually dealt with a serious revolt near the capital while Zhuge Liang was with the sick Liu Bei, he also seems to have had support from the court. So he had some experience, an education, a promising start despite his tender age, Zhuge Liang did no saving historically though of course, without him one wonders who would have run the civil administration. Most of Liu Shan's reign was prosperous (of which Liang was alive for only ten), he was a lazy and overly trusting emperor but one who also kept his officers loyal and Yi didn't see the political strife's of it's rivals or the revolts that plagued Liu Zhang. Shan was not as able as his father but then, very few men were

Cao Pi's reforms internally were important, he also prevented the possibility of Wei plunging into civil war after Cao Cao's death, he would have made a very successful peacetime emperor. He lacked Cao Cao's military ability but Cao Cao was arguably the greatest man of his time, rather a very difficult task to match up to him.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:20 pm
by hall_of_famer02
Dong Zhou wrote:During his life time and for a bit after, the description of Liu Shan was mediocre and kindly rather then stupid, the novel pretty much does a savage job on him. When Liu Bei died, I imagine he was confident Shu wouldn't collapse, Shan was well educated, had been doing well at his studies of late and had actually dealt with a serious revolt near the capital while Zhuge Liang was with the sick Liu Bei, he also seems to have had support from the court. So he had some experience, an education, a promising start despite his tender age, Zhuge Liang did no saving historically though of course, without him one wonders who would have run the civil administration. Most of Liu Shan's reign was prosperous (of which Liang was alive for only ten), he was a lazy and overly trusting emperor but one who also kept his officers loyal and Yi didn't see the political strife's of it's rivals or the revolts that plagued Liu Zhang. Shan was not as able as his father but then, very few men were

Cao Pi's reforms internally were important, he also prevented the possibility of Wei plunging into civil war after Cao Cao's death, he would have made a very successful peacetime emperor. He lacked Cao Cao's military ability but Cao Cao was arguably the greatest man of his time, rather a very difficult task to match up to him.


A very well brought out explanation. The novel emphasises the fact that Liu Chan wasn't really capable but the contrast is too much. He was a ruler that unfortunately had to listen to Huang Hao, but imagine you are him in that era of war and unstability, it would be hard to actually know who to trust and which advice seemed the best.

People like Cao Pi actually done a very good job in governing their countries but its just that their accomplishments weren't as great as their predecessors and thus does not live up to the standards of readers.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:43 pm
by Antiochus
I assume that had Ang not died, he would have been a good choice.

The main problem is that we do not know much about him appart from his sacrifice, which at least demonstrate that he had great character.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:17 pm
by hall_of_famer02
Ang himself admitted to Cao Cao he wasn't as capable as Cao Cao and was unable to be a ruler like Cao Cao.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:14 pm
by Antiochus
I think that any son talking to his father would have said the same...

I dont see this as an aknoledgement of incompetance, but more as a mark of respect and loyaulty to someone who is both his father and his liege. Had Cao Pi been in the same place, people would expect him to act the same.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:41 pm
by Dong Zhou
hall_of_famer02 wrote:Ang himself admitted to Cao Cao he wasn't as capable as Cao Cao and was unable to be a ruler like Cao Cao.


news to me, where did you get that one from?

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:01 pm
by Antiochus
I think he was referring to his last words to his father before his sacrifice, where he says that he is remplasable while Cao Cao is not.

Re: Cao Cao's successor

Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:37 pm
by Shen Ai
Cao Ang would be best. The Yuan family destroyed each other fighting amongst themselves. Jia Xu pointed it out. Cao Pi was the eldest living and he needed the throne. The same would be for Ang.