Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:20 pm

Zhuge Liang supported by Guan Yu on the military side was Liu Bei's first choice, then he called ZL away. He needed a replacement for ZL. As for replacing Guan Yu, Zhang Fei was the better general but not as good civily. The other alternitives being Zhao Yun who didn't have the required experience. Apart from that there was no-one with the required repuation and long service to Liu Bei that was needed.

Guan Yu IMO was the best choice but what he needed was a better support staff. So maybe the like of Sun Qian who was famed for his diplomatic ability. Something Guan Yu needed to cope with the trecharous Sun Quan :P.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby mrbeate » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:52 pm

Guan Yu was arrogant but he was able to hold Jing for 10 years with disloyal officers in his ranks. Cao Cao was afraid of attacking guan Yu or that was one of the reasons. Zhuge Liang is a genius, He formed the Three kingdoms, and won the trust of meng huo. Fei is not a candidate cause he blew it at Xuzhou. Yun great officer but wasn't high ranked enough i think, and can't be left with such an important province. Kong ming's words were important to Liu Bei and Kong Ming disliked Wei Yan for some reason. Oh and Wei Yan surrendered to Liu Bei when Liu Bei conquered Han Xuan. Kong Ming thought that Wei Yan is untrustworthy and can surrender again to an invading force. Huang zhong was off in invading Han Zhong.

I think Guan Yu was the best candidates for Jingzhou but who knows what would've happened if others were put in Jing.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:58 am

mrbeate wrote:Guan Yu was arrogant but he was able to hold Jing for 10 years with disloyal officers in his ranks. Cao Cao was afraid of attacking guan Yu or that was one of the reasons.


Disloyal officers? You mean Mi Fang who had served with Liu Bei almost as long as Guan Yu and had stayed with him even during the worst times like just after XiaPi? I don't think you can call Mi Fang unloyal, no I blame Guan Yu 100% for that one. The other guy, Fu Shu Ren (is it?), I don't know enough about but I guess he was unloyal.

But I do agree Guan Yu was the only option once ZGL was summoned to Liu Bei's side.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Zappa » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:29 pm

I blame Guan Yu 100% for that one

Why do you blame Guan Yu? It is not as Guan Yu told Mi Fang to defect.In my opinion a traitor is a traitor it doesnt matter how long he served his lord
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby mrbeate » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:49 pm

Sun Fin wrote:You mean Mi Fang who had served with Liu Bei almost as long as Guan Yu and had stayed with him even during the worst times like just after XiaPi? I don't think you can call Mi Fang unloyal, no I blame Guan Yu 100% for that one.


Ummm. Mi Fang joined Liu Bei when Tao Qian gave up his province to Liu Bei. That happened years after Liu Bei started his conquest. And i agree with Zappa. Say i served Zappa for 10 years. And i was left to defend the castle, and then an enemy comes and surrounds the castle. Then i surrender like almost immediately. Wouldn't that make me disloyal?
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Zappa » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:25 pm

You re absolutly right mrbeate its just like you said.We also shouldnt forget that Mi Fang wasnt that stupid he saw the right oppurtunity to surrender and rescue his own life before they were surrounded.If he wouldnt have defected Guan Yu would have won perhaps.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby mrbeate » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:17 pm

Also the other officer with him...uhmm fu Shi Ren? Fu Shi Ren only served Liu Bei for some time and wanted to defect to Wu. If Mi Fang was loyal and did everything he could to defend it even risking his own life. Then Fu Shi Ren probably would've plotted to kill Mi Fang and surrender to Wu. But Mi Fang can find out and execute him for treason, and guan Yu would have alot better chance to live. But that's two things that can happen if Mi Fang was more loyal.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Zappa » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:47 am

What I know about Fu Shi Ren is that he just had joined Liu so you cant expect him to be loyal to the death.He just tried to save his own life he would have surrenderd to anyone inorder to survive COWARD!!!
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:27 am

mrbeate wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:You mean Mi Fang who had served with Liu Bei almost as long as Guan Yu and had stayed with him even during the worst times like just after XiaPi? I don't think you can call Mi Fang unloyal, no I blame Guan Yu 100% for that one.


Ummm. Mi Fang joined Liu Bei when Tao Qian gave up his province to Liu Bei. That happened years after Liu Bei started his conquest. And i agree with Zappa. Say i served Zappa for 10 years. And i was left to defend the castle, and then an enemy comes and surrounds the castle. Then i surrender like almost immediately. Wouldn't that make me disloyal?


I'm in between for this matter... Mi Fang served Liu Bei for years and had followed Liu Bei through his hard toil. He never shows signs of disloyalty throughout his career with Liu Bei. And Mi Fang surrendered through the coercion of Fu Shiren who slew Guan Yu's messenger that asks for supplies to be delivered when Jingzhou had been lost to Lu Meng. Mi Fang couldn't find a good way out of his quandary so he surrendered.

Of course like Mrbeate and Zappa was saying Mi Fang's surrenders puts Guan Yu army in quandary... I think the blame is Fu Shiren. Mi Fang hesitated and unwilling to surrender untill Fu Shiren slew Guan Yu's messenger. The one who disloyal is Fu Shiren I think, and Mi Fang is not so disloyal... :)

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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:15 am

If Mi Fang was going to defect, he would have done it at Chang Ban (where in the novel, he is shot in the face and were historically he knew Cao Cao respected him but he had given up rank to serve Liu Bei) so why would he suddenly do it now? Simple, Guan Yu had left a threat hanging over him, knowing your possibly going to be killed by your own commander does tend to decrease loyalty significantly so how is it not Guan Yu's fault that he undermined the loyalty of his rearguard? When you know you could be killed by your own commander, your suddenly surrounded, the other guy capable of helping you has surrendered and is in fact at your gates, the charming Yu Fan is also adding his persuasion...yeah, I think a fair few would have founded it difficult. Easy to view someone as a coward after all in peacetime, comfort and on a computer

Did it prevent Guan Yu from winning? No, he didn't think the rumours were true so kept failing to beat Cao Ren, Lu Chang and then being smashed by Xu Huang.
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