Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Fledgling Phoenix » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:48 am

Lonely_dragon wrote:We all seems to have forgotten how Zhao Yun single handedly rescued Liu Chan from myriads of Cao Cao army at Dangyang. So If it is about fame I think Zhao Yun should've gained enough fame by Jing. Indeed Yun's greatest deeds were attained through Han Zhong, but I think we shouldn't forget about DangYang that is recorded as Zhao Yun's greatest feat. 8-)
In romanticized culture, sure. In reality, it was events directly after the capture of Han Zhong that were his greatest. That's when he became the real Tiger General, as per the Shu army.
SGZ, Zhao Yun wrote:In the twenty-fourth year of JianAn (AD 219), Zhao Yun went with Liu Bei to attack Hanzhong. After the Shu army had killed Xiahou Yuan, Cao Cao gathered a large army to Hanzhong in response. There was an incident whereby the Cao army was transporting a large supply of grain to the bottom of the Northern Mountain. Huang Zhong saw that as an opportunity to intercept the food supply and he led his followers as well as Zhao Yun’s to attack the food supply chain. When Huang Zhong failed to return by the scheduled time, Zhao Yun brought along some light cavalry to assist Huang Zhong. After a short period of journeying, they met up with Cao Cao’s main force. Zhao Yun fought with Cao Cao’s vanguard but the latter’s troops were quickly reinforced in large amounts, forcing Zhao Yun to beat a retreat. The Cao army had Zhao Yun’s troops surrounded and by the time Zhao Yun managed to break out of the enemies’ lines, he realized that his subordinate Zhang Zhu was injured. Zhao Yun charged back into the enemies’ midst to rescue Zhang Zhu before they retreated back to their camp. At that time, the governor of Mianyang county Zhang Yi was helping to defend the camp. When he saw the size of the Cao army coming, he shut the gates and refused to defend. Zhao Yun realized of the immensity of the enemy’s troops and found it impossible to defend the camp. Thus he ordered for the gates to be opened, the flags taken down and the beating of drums ceased. When the Cao army arrived at the camp, they suspected of a possible ambush and retreated hastily. Zhao Yun then ordered for the drums to be beaten and also arrows be shot. The Cao army was taken by surprise by the sudden noise and was put to disarray and stampeding and many were drowned in the River Han nearby. The next day, Liu Bei came to Zhao Yun’s camp to inspect the outcome of the battle and could not help but praise Zhao Yun for his bravery. From then on, Zhao Yun was nicknamed among the Shu army as General of Tiger Valor (Hu Wei Jiang Jun).
That's fame for a good reason. Saving babies was a past time for Zhao Yun. He saved Liu Shan a second time from Wu. He also disciplined Lady Sun's bodyguards. Sounds like a kick ass family man, sure, but protector of a province might demand a little more.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:35 am

Fledgling Phoenix wrote:In romanticized culture, sure. In reality, it was events directly after the capture of Han Zhong that were his greatest. That's when he became the real Tiger General, as per the Shu army.


Indeed his feat of Dang Yang didn't show leadership skills but mere shows of Courage and Valor. But I was emphasizing on the word Fame there. So at the time in Wei he was a renowned as the Hero of Chang Ban. And many officers amongst Cao Cao ranks feared Zhao Yun. I was using Dang Yang as an example not due to Zhao Yun's quality in leadership nor governorship. It is because many of the arguments above shown that Zhao Yun had no fame up until his shining performance at Han Zhong... For me that's not true, because imo the Dang Yang events sure puts Zhao Yun as a famed warrior... In short I think by the time in Jingzhou Zhao Yun should've enough fame equals to Guan Yu... :D
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Fledgling Phoenix » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:43 pm

Lonely_dragon wrote:For me that's not true, because imo the Dang Yang events sure puts Zhao Yun as a famed warrior... In short I think by the time in Jingzhou Zhao Yun should've enough fame equals to Guan Yu... :D

That's pushing it quite a bit. Guan Yu's fame was caused by his service to Cao Cao during Cao's successful campaign against Yuan Shao while Yu maintained his loyalty to Liu Bei. It was Cao Cao's reverence of Guan Yu that earned such esteem, through both Liu Bei's faction and Cao Cao's much larger faction. Zhao Yun's feat at Dang Yang could hardly compare. While I do agree it's something marvelous and I do understand where you're coming from, there's no evidence to suggest that anyone besides Liu Bei even recognized the feat as anything significant. The politics just weren't in Liu Bei's favor during that time.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby GuanYunChang » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:16 pm

Guan yu, Zhang fei, Zhao yun, and Zhuge liang were all not suited for this task. I believe Fa Zheng should've been put in shortly after
campaign of yi zhou, and with a war general with about fighting abilities about jiang wei's. Ma chao could've serve as deputy.
Fa zheng is capable in both administrating and strategy, bit less capable than Xunwenruo, but still pretty good out of liu bei's options.
Liu bei also placed strong trust in Fa zheng. Zhuge liang once said" if only fa zheng was here to persuade him(liu bei).
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:46 am

GuanYunChang wrote:Guan yu, Zhang fei, Zhao yun, and Zhuge liang were all not suited for this task. I believe Fa Zheng should've been put in shortly after
campaign of yi zhou, and with a war general with about fighting abilities about jiang wei's. Ma chao could've serve as deputy.
Fa zheng is capable in both administrating and strategy, bit less capable than Xunwenruo, but still pretty good out of liu bei's options.
Liu bei also placed strong trust in Fa zheng. Zhuge liang once said" if only fa zheng was here to persuade him(liu bei).


The problem is Fa Zheng was newly recruited officer. Liu Bei can't trust him Jing Zhou. If he do that, people who served him from the beginning will be unstatisfied. Fa Zheng also at that time, not yet showing and proved his potential as a strategist. So the decision only between Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. For Zhao Yun, he was only known for his bravest and loyalty (at that time).
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:02 am

Fledgling Phoenix wrote:
Lonely_dragon wrote:For me that's not true, because imo the Dang Yang events sure puts Zhao Yun as a famed warrior... In short I think by the time in Jingzhou Zhao Yun should've enough fame equals to Guan Yu... :D

That's pushing it quite a bit. Guan Yu's fame was caused by his service to Cao Cao during Cao's successful campaign against Yuan Shao while Yu maintained his loyalty to Liu Bei. It was Cao Cao's reverence of Guan Yu that earned such esteem, through both Liu Bei's faction and Cao Cao's much larger faction. Zhao Yun's feat at Dang Yang could hardly compare. While I do agree it's something marvelous and I do understand where you're coming from, there's no evidence to suggest that anyone besides Liu Bei even recognized the feat as anything significant. The politics just weren't in Liu Bei's favor during that time.


Yeah... But I think generally Zhao Yun's feat in single handedly rescuing Liu Shan at Dang Yang should boost up his fame throughout the kingdom. Just a thought though... And sadly I didn't had any reference to Zhao yun's fame after his feat at Dang Yang... Perhaps I should let Dong Zhou enlightened me on this. :D
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:16 am

My latest thought: Liu Bei was trying to do too many things with too few people, so it wouldn't have mattered at all who was in charge of Jingzhou.

If the plan was to keep Jingzhou the way it is, and only push the Hanzhong line, either Guan Yu (fame) or Zhao Yun (prudence) would have cut it. However, once the plan involved mobilizing from Jingzhou simultaneously, you really do need another person there to manage the province and act as a back up. Even if Wu was 100% honest about the alliance, what would have happened if on the campaign a stray arrow finds Guan Yu somewhere more deadly than in the arm? Or what if a natural disaster strikes Jingzhou, or enemy spies infiltrate and start a riot? Even a god of war can't be in two places at once.

So, unless the Jingzhou plan was to stay put, Zhuge Liang was really needed there. As someone said earlier, Pang Tong's death was far more costly than it could ever seem.

However, Zhuge Liang was also needed in Chengdu because Yizhou was the heart of his Longzhong plan, and its stability was paramount. And Fa Zheng was too new (plus he had a tendency of pissing people off). Furthermore, Zhuge Liang had a hard time trusting newcomers, so he really had no choice but to handle Chengdu himself.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:06 pm

I think Liu Bei made a right decision for made Guan Yu govern Jing Zhou if we see in that moment Guan Yu is the best option, because, one, he is Liu Bei "right hand", second he was at top ranked officer. Imagine if you in Liu Bei position, it's okay not see the rank,maybe anyone else more capable doing this job, but how Guan Yu's feel and how the other will see if Liu Bei didn't appoint him in the major position ? That's the point, Liu Bei entrusted Guan Yu maybe not objective, but at least he is not bad at govern Jing Zhou.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:15 am

xiaoxiannu wrote:Imagine if you in Liu Bei position, it's okay not see the rank,maybe anyone else more capable doing this job, but how Guan Yu's feel and how the other will see if Liu Bei didn't appoint him in the major position

But then Wei Yan was picked over Zhang Fei as the governor of Hanzhong...
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:10 am

But then Wei Yan was picked over Zhang Fei as the governor of Hanzhong...


that's different reason, zhang fei was given a task by Liu Bei (I forgot) :mrgreen:
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