Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:32 am

I don't think anyone had the battlefield ability to resist on two fronts, one of them being naval. Guan Yu was probably the best choice but he was simply overextended. Maybe Liu Bei would have been better to keep some reinforcements closer to Jingzhou, but that would have taken from his Northern Campaign, and the Northern theater turned out to be much more important in the long run. After all, 'he who defends everything defends nothing.' In hindsight, it's easy to say that Guan should simply have retreated and let Jingzhou revert to Wu's control, but it probably would have gone against his sense of honor.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby hahaguy » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:10 am

Zhang Fei: In the novel, he is too reckless and rash to be charged with guarding anything important. He is also bad at administration. However, he did devise his own strategies and used his reputation as a 'dumb and rash general who loves to drink' to his advantage, causing people to under-estimate him. He could be tasked to guard JingZhou, he just needed someone wise, clever, higher-ranked and able to control him, to control the administration and govern the area. I doubt Jingzhou would be lost then. Only problem is the only candidate who fulfills the above requirements, is probably only Zhuge Liang or Liu Bei. We all know why they can't stay in Jingzhou...

Guan Yu: Decent enough governor, doesn't seem to be excellent nor too bad. Not too sure about his usage of strategies, but he seemed clever enough. He also has an excellent reputation, which might just scare people off. Only problem is that he's too proud, which caused his downfall. I must admit that if I were Liu Bei, I would have probably made the same mistake at that time.

Zhao Yun: Not sure how good he is at strategies (He might have learned a thing or two from Zhuge Liang, since Zhao Yun is the usually the one who executes the moves, but thats not until later). Normally he is with Zhuge Liang, who is the brains and he is the muscle. He did show capability at leading troops and making decisons himself. Even with average administrators, he could probably govern the area without trouble.

Conclusion: Zhao Yun is the best choice. He doesn't really have any weaknesses the enemy can exploit. Even if he is overwhelmed by sheer numbers, he could just retreat slowly while waiting for reinforcements. And we all know how brilliant he is as a rearguard...
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:59 pm

There really was no other choice besides Guan Yu. Zhuge Liang was needed to govern the more important territory and to advice Liu Bei which was his main function. Sure he wasn't vital in taking Yi but at the very least he needed to be there after Yi was conquered.

Zhang Fei was a general with minimal governance experience, he could control a small territory alright but nothing to the extent of Jing and i am not even sure he would want to. He was never recorded as to demanding lots of territory to control nor did he seem to vie for any positions.

Zhao Yun got most of his fame after Liu Bei died. Sure he had a few impressive things here and there but only really came into fame later on plus Gui Yang has like what 20 people in it? ( i exaggerate of course) He wouldn't be trusted with anything so big.

Guan Yu had some limited governance experience when he was placed in charge of the Xu province during Liu Bei's rebellion against Cao Cao. Also i believe it is either in Lu Meng or Lu Xun's bio during a conversation between those two when Lu Meng cautions Lu Xun about Guan Yu saying that he had ruled Jing well and was kind to the people. Thus we see that Guan Yu did have ability to govern fairly and was competent. No other Shu general could have won in the same situation. Guan Yu was out numbered with exhausted troops who's families were under the control of the enemy. It was a situation that Zhao Yun, Ma Chao, Huang Zhong, or Zhang Fei would have all crumbled against.

The only way that Jing could have been defended was to have previously gotten a large amount of reinforcements led by a competent general ie Zhang Fei or Huang Zhong while Guan Yu was fighting against Wei. (though i am not sure if Huang was still alive by then) After Wei overwhelmed Guan Yu it was too late.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Mistelten » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:05 pm

Also who had the experience of field command. I don't think Zhao Yun had any at this point. Zhang Fei did, but he was in the Han Zhong campaign at the time AND he couldn't be trusted to keep the political situation from falling apart.

Liu Bei should have compromised and given up on Jingzhou because, if successful in the north, he could have taken it back anyway. Shu was more defensible and it didn't have the great river cutting through it giving an easy route of invasion.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Lu Kang » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:24 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:There really was no other choice besides Guan Yu. Zhuge Liang was needed to govern the more important territory and to advice Liu Bei which was his main function. Sure he wasn't vital in taking Yi but at the very least he needed to be there after Yi was conquered.


I still haven't heard a convincing argument as to why Zhuge Liang was needed in Yizhou. The fact that Zhuge Liang wasn't as important as Fa Zheng shows that he was not indispensable in Yi. He may have helped but I dont see the massive need that Yizhou had, that only Zhuge Liang could fill. If someone like Zhao Yun was good enough for Jing, then they would be just as good for Yizhou.

Thus we see that Guan Yu did have ability to govern fairly and was competent. No other Shu general could have won in the same situation. Guan Yu was out numbered with exhausted troops who's families were under the control of the enemy. It was a situation that Zhao Yun, Ma Chao, Huang Zhong, or Zhang Fei would have all crumbled against.


I dont think those other generals would get into the same situation as Guan Yu. He sowed the seeds of his own destruction.
Last edited by Lu Kang on Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Fledgling Phoenix » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:53 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:The only way that Jing could have been defended was to have previously gotten a large amount of reinforcements led by a competent general ie Zhang Fei or Huang Zhong while Guan Yu was fighting against Wei. (though i am not sure if Huang was still alive by then) After Wei overwhelmed Guan Yu it was too late.

Huang Zhong's death occurred after Guan Yu's.

There was only one way that Jing could have been successfully defended: Defending it. It was taken while Guan Yu lost several dozens of IQ points and went on the offensive.

Hi again, by the way.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby ZhouTai50 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:44 pm

Zhuge Liang would have been better placed in Jingzhou than Yizhou. Granted, Yi was a relatively new acquisition for Liu Bei and it needed stabilization as well, but Liu Bei did have others capable of doing that so that Zhuge Liang could be present in Jing without the political situation in Yi being ignored.

As for whether Guan Yu could have defended Jing if he hadn't tried to attack Wei, which, in the situation, wasn't a necessarily bad move, though he carried out the campaign horrendously, I have my doubts. Wu wanted the territory and Guan Yu gave them a number of legitimate excuses to do so. And, even if he wasn't already in a bad position with the Fan Campaign, I seriously doubt he could have held off Lu Meng and the capable officers under him.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:47 pm

I still haven't heard a convincing argument as to why Zhuge Liang was needed in Yizhou. The fact that Zhuge Liang wasn't as important as Fa Zheng shows that he was not indispensable in Yi. He may have helped but I dont see the massive need that Yizhou had, that only Zhuge Liang could fill.


To reform the administration, write the laws and look after Yi while Liu Bei was in Hanzhong. Liu Bei didn't have another administrator that was either trusted enough or able enough to take that role
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:12 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Zhao Yun got most of his fame after Liu Bei died. Sure he had a few impressive things here and there but only really came into fame later on plus Gui Yang has like what 20 people in it? ( i exaggerate of course) He wouldn't be trusted with anything so big.


I don’t think that is entirely true. Zhao Yun got a great deal of fame amongst his kingdom because of Hanzhong. It was his performance here that earned his nickname amongst the army. Liu Bei was still alive at this point and would be for a few more years. I agree that before Hanzhong Zhao Yun was probably not that famous in his kingdom but afterwards it was a different story. My point is that Liu Bei was still alive when Zhao Yun earned most of his fame in his kingdom.

Guiyang and shortly after Gong’an were small territories. Yes that’s fair enough, but the small amount of experience gained from governing these places was better than nothing. Besides I would say that Guan Yu proved through his later actions that governing experience really didn’t count for that much in the end.

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Guan Yu had some limited governance experience when he was placed in charge of the Xu province during Liu Bei's rebellion against Cao Cao. Also i believe it is either in Lu Meng or Lu Xun's bio during a conversation between those two when Lu Meng cautions Lu Xun about Guan Yu saying that he had ruled Jing well and was kind to the people. Thus we see that Guan Yu did have ability to govern fairly and was competent. No other Shu general could have won in the same situation. Guan Yu was out numbered with exhausted troops who's families were under the control of the enemy. It was a situation that Zhao Yun, Ma Chao, Huang Zhong, or Zhang Fei would have all crumbled against.


That conversation between Lu Meng and Lu Xun about Guan Yu isn’t very reliable. As we know, at the time Lu Meng was already planning against Guan Yu and only Meng and Sun Quan and maybe one or two others were originally allowed in on the plan. This was of course to keep the plan from being leaked to Guan Yu which could have happened if too many people knew. Anyway the fact is that Lu Xun was not originally in on the plan so Lu Meng’s praise of Guan Yu was merely to justify to Lu Xun why he (Meng) was not planning against Yu. Only after Lu Xun gave his thoughts on attacking Guan Yu did Lu Meng reveal the truth to Lu Xun and let him in on the plan as he was impressed with Lu Xun. My point is that Lu Meng’s praise of Guan Yu cannot be taken as his genuine opinion due to all the secrecy and lies in this scene. This praise therefore does not hold much weight. Guan Yu’s later actions are a far more reliable indicator of his ‘skill’ at governing.

No other Shu general may have won once the battle had started. I could agree to that. However, many of them may not have started a battle they couldn’t win like Guan Yu did. I agree with Lu Kang here.

Lu Kang wrote:I still haven't heard a convincing argument as to why Zhuge Liang was needed in Yizhou. The fact that Zhuge Liang wasn't as important as Fa Zheng shows that he was not indispensable in Yi. He may have helped but I dont see the massive need that Yizhou had, that only Zhuge Liang could fill. If someone like Zhao Yun was good enough for Jing, then they would be just as good for Yizhou.


Well one thing I could say is that the political situation in Yizhou was more in shambles than Jingzhou. Liu Zhang’s foolish leadership had caused major internal problems with the legal system for instance. It was in a worse state internally than Jingzhou. Zhuge Liang was jointly governing Jing before he left to Yizhou and so when he left Jingzhou in Yu’s hands the political situation there would have been more stable than Yizhou which was somewhat chaotic. Is this a fair argument?
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:50 am

Elitemsh wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Zhao Yun got most of his fame after Liu Bei died. Sure he had a few impressive things here and there but only really came into fame later on plus Gui Yang has like what 20 people in it? ( i exaggerate of course) He wouldn't be trusted with anything so big.


I don’t think that is entirely true. Zhao Yun got a great deal of fame amongst his kingdom because of Hanzhong. It was his performance here that earned his nickname amongst the army. Liu Bei was still alive at this point and would be for a few more years. I agree that before Hanzhong Zhao Yun was probably not that famous in his kingdom but afterwards it was a different story. My point is that Liu Bei was still alive when Zhao Yun earned most of his fame in his kingdom.

Guiyang and shortly after Gong’an were small territories. Yes that’s fair enough, but the small amount of experience gained from governing these places was better than nothing. Besides I would say that Guan Yu proved through his later actions that governing experience really didn’t count for that much in the end.


We all seems to have forgotten how Zhao Yun single handedly rescued Liu Chan from myriads of Cao Cao army at Dangyang. So If it is about fame I think Zhao Yun should've gained enough fame by Jing. Indeed Yun's greatest deeds were attained through Han Zhong, but I think we shouldn't forget about DangYang that is recorded as Zhao Yun's greatest feat. 8-)
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