Zhang Fei able strategist and perfect warrior...

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Unread postby Elitemsh » Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:33 am

In my opinion if Zhang Fei was less disrespectful towards his soldiers he would have been the best warrior of the three kingdoms. He had strength close to Lu Bu and over time developed. There were few officers who began foolhardy but adapted to become both strong and intelligent.
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Unread postby DAv » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:02 pm

Personally I believe he was the the best of the Tiger Generals and ROTK severly undermines his accomplishments and persona. And if Changban was not all him, you've got to have guts to stand and shout at an army.
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Unread postby REMIX » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:39 pm

Zhang Fei in my opinion, was quite clever but no way comparable to the other 3 tiger generals in intellect. He was probably like ma chao, only ma chao was a bit cleverer. This is cos although Zhang Fei had good strategies, he was easily riled by the enemy and was not too patient. He also got drunk a lot of times and nearly ended Liu Bei's army when he had a rivalry with LuBu. He also usually does things that come into his head without thinking about it first, like when he told Liu Bei to become emperer, even though the rest were only asking Liu Bei to become King.

I read in the first page that people say he was the cleverest of the 5 tiger generals, but i highly doubt it. He had a few good strategies but got drunk and careless several times, but the other tiger generals had more good and better strategies but rarely got drunk and tricked unlike Zhang Fei but now are considered to be dumber than Zhang Fei. So now instead of Zhang Fei being underated, its the other tiger generals who are underated.
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Unread postby Khayman » Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:38 am

There is more to intelligence then just the formation of good strategies. Zhang's intelligence can also be found to be manifesting itself in such places as when he stopped Liu's wife from taking both herself and his only son to Sun, where he would then have been left open to attack, as well as saving of Shu's most important and ,in hindsight, enduring generals, Zhao Yun, from at least certain capture, if not death, at the hands of Sun Quan's men.

Instances such as these can be found to be, in the long run, much more important than mere single feats of military brilliance that may win single and at the time important battles, but battles which may not be so important in the long run as these acts.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:16 am

Remix, historically Zhang Fei was never a drunk. The author created this to help explain why Zhang Fei would beat his own men. Also at the start Zhang Fei was easily provoked, however over time he was able to control his temper (in battle) and even use it to his advantage. I am sure that for someone like Zhang Fei to not charge when provoked was very difficult, the fact that he was able to avoid this many times showed how good a warrior he had become. I think that Zhang Fei was definitely better strategically than Ma Chao and Huang Zhong but not as good as Guan Yu and perhaps not Zhao Yun either.
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Unread postby REMIX » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:37 am

Zhang Fei was never drunk? I never really knew that, where did you find it out? Well, i sorta agree about zhang being much more capable than ma chao, but im not so sure about huang zhong. I was really amazed by Huang Zhong in the battle against cao cao's army, i think which was at hanzong.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:46 am

In Zhang Fei's SGZ bio, which is the historical information of the period, there is no mention of him being drunk thus there is no reason to assume that he was. As for Huang Zhong being more intelligent, I do not agree. Zhang Fei had more strategic accomplishments to his name. Nonetheless Huang Zhong's victory at Han Zhong was very impressive.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:50 pm

REMIX wrote:Zhang Fei was never drunk? I never really knew that, where did you find it out? Well, i sorta agree about zhang being much more capable than ma chao, but im not so sure about huang zhong. I was really amazed by Huang Zhong in the battle against cao cao's army, i think which was at hanzong.


I believe in his SGZ bio it never mentions him drinking. It does mentions that right before he died Liu Bei disaproved of the way he beat his men and warned him against it because one day he wouldsuffer for it and in the end Liu Bei was right.
Take a look at the SGZ bios on this site they recently added some more to their collection they are quite good reads and they tell more about the real people that the characters of the novel were based on.
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Unread postby Shield » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:15 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:I believe in his SGZ bio it never mentions him drinking. It does mentions that right before he died Liu Bei disaproved of the way he beat his men and warned him against it because one day he wouldsuffer for it and in the end Liu Bei was right.
Take a look at the SGZ bios on this site they recently added some more to their collection they are quite good reads and they tell more about the real people that the characters of the novel were based on.


While I do not know if Zhang Fei abused alcohol enough to be consider a drunkard, I am pretty sure that he did drink on occasion. Matter of fact, consider all the banquets, feasts, etc... that they would have for gathering or celebration, one would be shock if anyone back then didn't drink at all, especially a fighter. Anyway, as Pei Songzhi pointed out that while Chen Shou did an admirable job on SGZ, it was rather short and there were some ommisions. The point is not everything was included in these SGZ bio. So just because Chen Shou didn't mentioned something, it doesn't necessarily mean that it never happened. Perhaps it just wasn't important enough to be included.

On the other hand one cannot said that something happened without any proofs to suggested it either, which then sometime we have to speculate on things. Personally I don't think Zhang Fei was a drunkard as it was said that he respected his peers and superiors. Well drunk people often loses control and don't know what they are doing. If Zhang Fei was a drunkard and often loses control like suggested then he would have been disrespectful toward everyone instead of just subordinates.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:39 am

Shield wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:I believe in his SGZ bio it never mentions him drinking. It does mentions that right before he died Liu Bei disaproved of the way he beat his men and warned him against it because one day he wouldsuffer for it and in the end Liu Bei was right.
Take a look at the SGZ bios on this site they recently added some more to their collection they are quite good reads and they tell more about the real people that the characters of the novel were based on.


While I do not know if Zhang Fei abused alcohol enough to be consider a drunkard, I am pretty sure that he did drink on occasion. Matter of fact, consider all the banquets, feasts, etc... that they would have for gathering or celebration, one would be shock if anyone back then didn't drink at all, especially a fighter. Anyway, as Pei Songzhi pointed out that while Chen Shou did an admirable job on SGZ, it was rather short and there were some ommisions. The point is not everything was included in these SGZ bio. So just because Chen Shou didn't mentioned something, it doesn't necessarily mean that it never happened. Perhaps it just wasn't important enough to be included.

On the other hand one cannot said that something happened without any proofs to suggested it either, which then sometime we have to speculate on things. Personally I don't think Zhang Fei was a drunkard as it was said that he respected his peers and superiors. Well drunk people often loses control and don't know what they are doing. If Zhang Fei was a drunkard and often loses control like suggested then he would have been disrespectful toward everyone instead of just subordinates.


Well when i said that it never mentioned him drinking i was implying that it would mention a drinking problem. I am sure he had drinks at banquites and parties etc but he wasn't a drunk like the novel says he was. Zhang Fei is basicly a case of an ok general who learned from his mistakes and became a great general. Many people were like this few people were good enough to be a master general when they first start fighting. Even Cao Cao had to develop into the amazing general that he was and was defeated on quite a few occations. Yuan Shao while talented had to rely on Cao Cao to help him beat Gongsun Zan and had to get Lu Bu to help him when Zhang Yan allied with Gongsun. Liu Bei faced quite a few defeats before he got into a position where he began to win over and over again.
Zhang Fei just got better with time and became one of Shu-Han's best generals. Liu Bei was amazing at recognizing talented people and could nurture that talent which is what he did with Zhang Fei turning him into something great.
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