Liu Bei's little kindnesses...

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Liu Bei's little kindnesses...

Unread postby Dennis » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:12 am

Chapter 11

Liu Bei went away to his friend Gongsun Zan and laid before Gongsun Zan his design to help Xuzhou.60 "Cao Cao and you are not enemies. Why do you spend yourself for the sake of another?" said Gongsun Zan.61 "I have promised," Liu Bei replied, "and dare not break faith."62 "I will lend you two thousand horse and foot," said Gongsun Zan.63 "Also, I wish to have the services of Zhao Zilong," said Liu Bei.64 Gongsun Zan agreed to this also. They marched away, Liu Bei's own troops being in the front, and Zhao Zilong, with the borrowed troops, being in rear.


Liu Bei isn't a very popular figure amongst seasoned RTK historians, and I personally think as a king, he is a bit of a bungaling goon, but some people go as far as to question his moral character and call him a beast and a turncoat, but with acts to save innocents from harm like the one above, he seems less like an oppurtunist, and more like a saint, what do you all think?
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Unread postby Chen Kun » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:33 am

if he was an oppurtunitist then he wouldn't dare to oppose Cao Cao before he has a strong base,right? :x
Many people think that Liu Bei was a traitor because he 'betrayed' many rulers,but I think he had done all he could do to save the people from tyrant :roll:
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:11 am

I wouldn't say that Liu Bei was a turncoat. Opportunist, yes, but not a turncoat. He clearly knew that he neither had the official power (like the Yuans) nor the fortune/local support (like Cao Cao and Sun Jian) to raise to a top power, so he could only scavenge whatever he could by using popular good-will to him and his title of "Imperial Uncle".

It's true he abandoned many whom he served under, but which of those people genuinely wanted him to stay and work for them? Cao Cao kept him because he didn't want him to go about making trouble; Yuan Shao kept him so to gain a good name for himself; Sun Quan (Jingzhou) and Liu Zhang... well, Liu Bei owed nothing to these people so it's not totally unfair for him to take their territory, I guess, though it's not strictly "nice".

His going to save Kong Rong and not abandoning the commoners at Dangyang can be seen as either truly altuistic acts or just trying to get people to like him. If it's the former, then I think that makes him more than average in the RTK world, but if the latter, then he's just on the same footing as everyone else, and not particularly more beast-like and turncoat-y.
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Unread postby Xiao He » Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:45 am

I find lots of events can be read both ways so it is up to the judgement of each person. For me, I have read the historical Liu Bei and I can view things slightly differently to others. It's all subjective. But what we can say is that Liu Bei did not massacre entire regions and innocent civilians.

Personally, I don't believe Liu Bei actually betrayed anyone, except for Liu Zhang where the situation demanded it and he had no choice.

When he was in Xuzhou with Tao Qian, he showed no intention of staging a coup, and even after being offered it by Tao Qian and urged by Qian's many officials, he still could not accept it but instead wanted to offer it to Yuan Shu who just in the South in Shouchun.

We must remember that Liu Bei was no ordinary soldier but commanded much respect. When Liu Bei was with Cao Cao, he was treated respectfully and it is said they rode in the same carriage. But when people say Liu Bei betrayed Cao Cao, then don't realise that it was an imperial order from Emperor Xian. If Liu Bei was so well-treated and respected by Cao Cao, would it not be more advantageous to attach to the strong, betray the weak, and gain favour and rank? Instead, he chose the dangerous option of following his Emperor's orders and plan an assassination which if it failed, would lead to death. To me, putting himself on the line to follow the Emperors orders is a sign of loyalty.

When Liu Bei was defeated at Xuzhou and went to Qingzhou, Yuan Shao went out of his city 200 miles to welcome him after receiving Yuan Tan's message. If Liu Bei was any ordinary general, would you expect the most powerful warlord to show the respect due for a Prince? Thus Liu Bei was more of a guest with Yuan Shao rather than a subordinate general. His 'leaving' of Yuan Shao doesnt constitute betrayal. We must remember than Yuan Shao earlier sent him to Runan to ally with Gong Du and Liu Pi and harrass Xuchang but he was defeated by Cao Ren and returned back to Yuan Shao. Just before Guan Du, Benchu again sent Liu Bei to join the soldiers of Runan. Liu Bei was unsuccessful at attacking Xuchang and with Yuan Shao defeated, he could not go back but instead sought Liu Biao's help in gathering up more forces, making a Xuchang attack more effective. It was only Liu Biao who hesistated. Thus I see no betrayal here, unlike Xu You who revealed Yuan Shao's military secrets to Cao Cao or Xin Pi who joined the enemy in attacking his own cities. Liu Bei did none of this but worked in the background to harass Cao Cao's rear, though to no avail.

Depending on how you read the books, we do know that two sources suggested that Liu Biao offered Jingzhou to Liu Bei. Whether it was true or not isnt the question since Liu Bei never tried to forcefully take Jingzhou anyway, despite advice from Zhuge Liang to attack Liu Zong in Xiangyang. This showed loyalty. His love for the common folk go back to his days as Governor of Pingyuan where he developed a caring and humane reputation. Taking the refugees of Xinye and Fancheng, most say it was a human shield. But considering the fact that Liu Bei could have galloped to safety in Jiangling in no time, any opportunist would have chosen this as the safest option to preserve their own dear life. But Liu Bei did not run away but travelled with the crowds and as the Jin historian, Xi Zuochi, said, it was really a righteous and honourable thing to do and Liu Biao's people followed him like clouds (SGZ-Shu-Liu Ba).

As for the Yizhou incident, we must note of the conversation between Liu Bei, Fa Zheng, and Pang Tong. Fa Zheng said Yizhou could be taken. Liu Bei couldnt decide and said how different he was from Cao Cao and that he couldnt do such an unrighteous act. Pang Tong assured him that attacking the weak and punishing the stupid was in natural accordance and the people of Yizhou would be governed better under him than Liu Zhang. He also assured him that Liu Zhang can be enfeoffed generously and there is no loss of righteousness. Liu Bei was then convinced and went ahead. But both Fa Zheng and Pang Tong advised they could assassinate Liu Zhang on the spot which directly contradicted Pang Tong's earlier words. In the end, Liu Bei did inevitably betray Liu Zhang, but considering all the opportunities that Liu Bei had, we can say that it could have been worse if it was someone else. For him to not chose the easier options of assassination or lighting attack on Chengdu can be read as Liu Bei not having the will to do it but rather because the situation demanded it. Most say the other plans would have never worked so Liu Bei's chosen plan was the only decent one, but from a talent such as Pang Tong who would rate a surprise attack on Chengdu as the best plan, and both him and Fa Zheng agreeing on assassinating Liu Zhang, it seems that Liu Bei had other ideas on how he was going to go in betraying Liu Zhang. That is why I said that it could have been worse.
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Unread postby Chen Kun » Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:03 pm

I have a question for all of you.We all know that Liu Bei started from zero.Do u think when he began his "journey" with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei he already thought of being a ruler?What was his motive at that time?I think he just wanted to do something for the kingdom and the people.
Maybe later he realized that it was impossible to save the kingdom without having power,and so he began to build his own kingdom.
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Unread postby Mitsunari Ishida » Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:57 pm

Chen Kun wrote:I have a question for all of you.We all know that Liu Bei started from zero.Do u think when he began his "journey" with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei he already thought of being a ruler?What was his motive at that time?I think he just wanted to do something for the kingdom and the people.
Maybe later he realized that it was impossible to save the kingdom without having power,and so he began to build his own kingdom.


I think that Liu Bei's objective from the beginning although he might not of had one, was to help the Han, and being a relation to the family in the Han line, he automatically, from the start fought to save the Han from the Yellow Scarves, and thats when he was started to gain military control of his own, and from then, became a rival to Cao Cao.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Fri Nov 01, 2002 3:15 am

Xiao He wrote:I find lots of events can be read both ways so it is up to the judgement of each person. For me, I have read the historical Liu Bei and I can view things slightly differently to others. It's all subjective. But what we can say is that Liu Bei did not massacre entire regions and innocent civilians.

Personally, I don't believe Liu Bei actually betrayed anyone, except for Liu Zhang where the situation demanded it and he had no choice.


Yeah, Sun Quan never betrayed anyone too, the attack on Guan Yu in 219AD was a situation that Sun Quan had no choice.

Xiao He wrote:When he was in Xuzhou with Tao Qian, he showed no intention of staging a coup, and even after being offered it by Tao Qian and urged by Qian's many officials, he still could not accept it but instead wanted to offer it to Yuan Shu who just in the South in Shouchun.


Tao Qian and Yuan Shu was not one called the best of friend, and far from it. Liu Bei don't accepted the first time, however he still rule over JingZhou later, its just a show that he put up to show that he was righteousness.

Xiao He wrote:We must remember that Liu Bei was no ordinary soldier but commanded much respect. When Liu Bei was with Cao Cao, he was treated respectfully and it is said they rode in the same carriage. But when people say Liu Bei betrayed Cao Cao, then don't realise that it was an imperial order from Emperor Xian.


Cao Cao respect anyone who had a reputation, however that respect ended when that person is plotted against him.

Xiao He wrote:If Liu Bei was so well-treated and respected by Cao Cao, would it not be more advantageous to attach to the strong, betray the weak, and gain favour and rank? Instead, he chose the dangerous option of following his Emperor's orders and plan an assassination which if it failed, would lead to death. To me, putting himself on the line to follow the Emperors orders is a sign of loyalty.


Where did it say in SGZ that Xian order Liu Bei to kill Cao Cao?

Xiao He wrote:When Liu Bei was defeated at Xuzhou and went to Qingzhou, Yuan Shao went out of his city 200 miles to welcome him after receiving Yuan Tan's message. If Liu Bei was any ordinary general, would you expect the most powerful warlord to show the respect due for a Prince?


You mean THE YUAN SHAO? The Yuan Shao that wanted to make Liu Yu emperor so he could have his own puppet to play with? Hmm... I don't think it was RESPECT that made Yuan Shao travelled that far.


Xiao He wrote:Depending on how you read the books, we do know that two sources suggested that Liu Biao offered Jingzhou to Liu Bei. Whether it was true or not isnt the question since Liu Bei never tried to forcefully take Jingzhou anyway, despite advice from Zhuge Liang to attack Liu Zong in Xiangyang. This showed loyalty. His love for the common folk go back to his days as Governor of Pingyuan where he developed a caring and humane reputation. Taking the refugees of Xinye and Fancheng, most say it was a human shield. But considering the fact that Liu Bei could have galloped to safety in Jiangling in no time, any opportunist would have chosen this as the safest option to preserve their own dear life. But Liu Bei did not run away but travelled with the crowds and as the Jin historian, Xi Zuochi, said, it was really a righteous and honourable thing to do and Liu Biao's people followed him like clouds (SGZ-Shu-Liu Ba).


Hmm... Taken a group of refugee to take JiangLing showed that he got no care for their safety. It was after his defeated at DangYang that force him to abandon plan to take JiangLing by force. So much for the regard for the people.

Xiao He wrote:As for the Yizhou incident, we must note of the conversation between Liu Bei, Fa Zheng, and Pang Tong. Fa Zheng said Yizhou could be taken. Liu Bei couldnt decide and said how different he was from Cao Cao and that he couldnt do such an unrighteous act. Pang Tong assured him that attacking the weak and punishing the stupid was in natural accordance and the people of Yizhou would be governed better under him than Liu Zhang. He also assured him that Liu Zhang can be enfeoffed generously and there is no loss of righteousness. Liu Bei was then convinced and went ahead.


That is why Liu Bei was the biggest hypocrite in Chinese history. I mean he did already had plan to take YiZhou even before he arrived there. Later he use Sun Quan's request for reinforcement to extort troops and supplied from poor old Liu Zhang. When Liu Zhang only gives him half of what he had demanded, Liu Bei cried betrayal and attacked his own kinsmen. I found no action of righteousness in what you describe up their.


Xiao He wrote:In the end, Liu Bei did inevitably betray Liu Zhang, but considering all the opportunities that Liu Bei had, we can say that it could have been worse if it was someone else. For him to not chose the easier options of assassination or lighting attack on Chengdu can be read as Liu Bei not having the will to do it but rather because the situation demanded it. Most say the other plans would have never worked so Liu Bei's chosen plan was the only decent one, but from a talent such as Pang Tong who would rate a surprise attack on Chengdu as the best plan, and both him and Fa Zheng agreeing on assassinating Liu Zhang, it seems that Liu Bei had other ideas on how he was going to go in betraying Liu Zhang. That is why I said that it could have been worse.


The problem with Pang Tong was that he is just a field strategist, not a great overall strategist like Zhuge Liang (don't be so happy Zhuge Liang's fan, I am not saying that Zhuge Liang was a good military stategist). Pang Tong's strategy might work in giving Liu Bei quick controlled of YiZhou, but how could Liu Bei gained the trust of the people of YiZhou when he so quick to betray his own kinsmen?
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Unread postby Xiao He » Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:58 am

Han Xin wrote:
Yeah, Sun Quan never betrayed anyone too, the attack on Guan Yu in 219AD was a situation that Sun Quan had no choice.


Not sure what Sun Quan has to do with it.

Tao Qian and Yuan Shu was not one called the best of friend, and far from it. Liu Bei don't accepted the first time, however he still rule over JingZhou later, its just a show that he put up to show that he was righteousness.


What does friendship have to do with it? Jingzhou?

Cao Cao respect anyone who had a reputation, however that respect ended when that person is plotted against him.


It is natural for Cao Cao to end respect for a person who was loyal to the Emperor. Remember Xun Yu? Remember Zhao Yan? Remember Xun Yue?

Oh yes, he respected Hua Xin and we all know the unthinkable things he did too. :lol:

Where did it say in SGZ that Xian order Liu Bei to kill Cao Cao?


In SGZ-Shu-Liu Bei, the bit about Dong Cheng and his crew.

You mean THE YUAN SHAO? The Yuan Shao that wanted to make Liu Yu emperor so he could have his own puppet to play with? Hmm... I don't think it was RESPECT that made Yuan Shao travelled that far.


What does Liu Yu have to do with Liu Bei? And what do you propose was the reason why he went out 200 miles to meet him? What do you propose was Yu Huan's reason to write in Dian Lue that both Yuan Shao and his son respected Liu Bei? The sources are there for you to read.


Hmm... Taken a group of refugee to take JiangLing showed that he got no care for their safety. It was after his defeated at DangYang that force him to abandon plan to take JiangLing by force. So much for the regard for the people.


The people were following him I believe. They were the ones who werent caring for their own safety. Liu Bei let them slow him down and didn't run away. Plus what does Jiangling have to do with it?

That is why Liu Bei was the biggest hypocrite in Chinese history. I mean he did already had plan to take YiZhou even before he arrived there. Later he use Sun Quan's request for reinforcement to extort troops and supplied from poor old Liu Zhang. When Liu Zhang only gives him half of what he had demanded, Liu Bei cried betrayal and attacked his own kinsmen. I found no action of righteousness in what you describe up their.


Well if you cant see the forest as well as the trees, then that's you. :lol:

The problem with Pang Tong was that he is just a field strategist, not a great overall strategist like Zhuge Liang (don't be so happy Zhuge Liang's fan, I am not saying that Zhuge Liang was a good military stategist). Pang Tong's strategy might work in giving Liu Bei quick controlled of YiZhou, but how could Liu Bei gained the trust of the people of YiZhou when he so quick to betray his own kinsmen?


How do you know Pang Tong was just a field strategist? Tell me where in SGZ it actually says that.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Fri Nov 01, 2002 7:44 am

Xiao He wrote:
Han Xin wrote:
Yeah, Sun Quan never betrayed anyone too, the attack on Guan Yu in 219AD was a situation that Sun Quan had no choice.


Not sure what Sun Quan has to do with it.


In Liu Bei case, he was not being force to betray Liu Zhang by circumstances. If you called that Liu Bei betrayal of Liu Zhang was force by the circumstances at the time, then all the betrayal in the history of mankind were force by circumstances.

Xiao He wrote:
Tao Qian and Yuan Shu was not one called the best of friend, and far from it. Liu Bei don't accepted the first time, however he still rule over JingZhou later, its just a show that he put up to show that he was righteousness.


What does friendship have to do with it? Jingzhou?


Sorry, I mean XuZhou. Tao Qian and Yuan Shu were best of enemy. Liu Bei suggested to give XuZhou to Yuan Shu was more of a trick to force Tao Qian and his cohort's hands rather than been humble.

Xiao He wrote:
You mean THE YUAN SHAO? The Yuan Shao that wanted to make Liu Yu emperor so he could have his own puppet to play with? Hmm... I don't think it was RESPECT that made Yuan Shao travelled that far.


What does Liu Yu have to do with Liu Bei? And what do you propose was the reason why he went out 200 miles to meet him? What do you propose was Yu Huan's reason to write in Dian Lue that both Yuan Shao and his son respected Liu Bei? The sources are there for you to read.


The problem was Yuan BenChu already wanted to have a royal to replaced Liu Xie, so I doubt it was respect that made him travelled 200 miles, it more like that Yuan BenChu wanted Liu Bei to replace Liu Yu as puppet.

Xiao He wrote:
Hmm... Taken a group of refugee to take JiangLing showed that he got no care for their safety. It was after his defeated at DangYang that force him to abandon plan to take JiangLing by force. So much for the regard for the people.


The people were following him I believe. They were the ones who werent caring for their own safety. Liu Bei let them slow him down and didn't run away. Plus what does Jiangling have to do with it?


I didn't say that these people were force to follow him. Liu Bei's target after abandon Xin Ye was to take JiangLing by force. With such a great mass of civilian followed him, you would expected that any benevolent ruler would abandon any military attempts on JiangLing and bring the civilian to safety first. However, Liu Bei never did such thing and his column of civilians and troops were destroyed by Cao Cao. I don't find Liu Bei's action as a benevolent ruler but more of a person who tried to manipulate the civilian support for him to his full advantages.

Xiao He wrote:
That is why Liu Bei was the biggest hypocrite in Chinese history. I mean he did already had plan to take YiZhou even before he arrived there. Later he use Sun Quan's request for reinforcement to extort troops and supplied from poor old Liu Zhang. When Liu Zhang only gives him half of what he had demanded, Liu Bei cried betrayal and attacked his own kinsmen. I found no action of righteousness in what you describe up their.


Well if you cant see the forest as well as the trees, then that's you. :lol:


Don't understand what this comments suppose to mean.

Xiao He wrote:
The problem with Pang Tong was that he is just a field strategist, not a great overall strategist like Zhuge Liang (don't be so happy Zhuge Liang's fan, I am not saying that Zhuge Liang was a good military stategist). Pang Tong's strategy might work in giving Liu Bei quick controlled of YiZhou, but how could Liu Bei gained the trust of the people of YiZhou when he so quick to betray his own kinsmen?


How do you know Pang Tong was just a field strategist? Tell me where in SGZ it actually says that.


Pang Tong was mainly used by Liu Bei as a field strategist. It was never mention anywhere in his bio that he gives Liu Bei advise regarding kingdom administration matter. So I felt it was safe to conclude that he was mainly good as a field strategist.
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Unread postby Xiao He » Fri Nov 01, 2002 12:44 pm

Han Xin wrote:
Xiao He wrote:
Han Xin wrote:
Yeah, Sun Quan never betrayed anyone too, the attack on Guan Yu in 219AD was a situation that Sun Quan had no choice.


Not sure what Sun Quan has to do with it.


In Liu Bei case, he was not being force to betray Liu Zhang by circumstances. If you called that Liu Bei betrayal of Liu Zhang was force by the circumstances at the time, then all the betrayal in the history of mankind were force by circumstances.


I don't agree that is an accurate generalisation. First he was forced to betray Liu Zhang because Yizhou's lands were in danger of being taken by Cao Cao. Sun Quan's letter also pointed to the same prediction and that only when Yizhou taken, together with Chu (Jingzhou) and Wu would withstand even ten Cao Cao's. That was also the argument put forward by Pang Tong after Liu Bei could not decide.

Sun Quan's situation barely correlates to this one. His reasoning was that the Jingzhou region somehow belonged to him and he was claiming it back by force. But did Liu Bei claim he lent Yizhou to Liu Zhang and it was time to get it back?

There is no correlation in claiming a region is yours with taking a territory for safety. Jingzhou was controlled by an strong ally and acted as a buffer region, thus Lu Su was wise in ceding Nanjun and Jiangxia to Liu Bei. It cannot compare to Yizhou which was led by a weak and incapable Liu Zhang who cant even sleep easy with Zhang Lu in the north, let alone a Cao Cao.

Thus I dismiss the Sun Quan comparison since it has little relevance.

Xiao He wrote:
Tao Qian and Yuan Shu was not one called the best of friend, and far from it. Liu Bei don't accepted the first time, however he still rule over JingZhou later, its just a show that he put up to show that he was righteousness.


What does friendship have to do with it? Jingzhou?


Sorry, I mean XuZhou. Tao Qian and Yuan Shu were best of enemy. Liu Bei suggested to give XuZhou to Yuan Shu was more of a trick to force Tao Qian and his cohort's hands rather than been humble.


Tao Qian was already dead when Liu Bei suggested giving it to Yuan Gonglu. It is only with hindsight that we know Yuan Shu's character. But at the time, he was from the influential Yuan family and with such a strong army in the South with many generals, advisors, etc. Liu Bei considered himself unfit to undertake this position.

Xiao He wrote:
You mean THE YUAN SHAO? The Yuan Shao that wanted to make Liu Yu emperor so he could have his own puppet to play with? Hmm... I don't think it was RESPECT that made Yuan Shao travelled that far.


What does Liu Yu have to do with Liu Bei? And what do you propose was the reason why he went out 200 miles to meet him? What do you propose was Yu Huan's reason to write in Dian Lue that both Yuan Shao and his son respected Liu Bei? The sources are there for you to read.


The problem was Yuan BenChu already wanted to have a royal to replaced Liu Xie, so I doubt it was respect that made him travelled 200 miles, it more like that Yuan BenChu wanted Liu Bei to replace Liu Yu as puppet.


Speculation, to say the very least. Where are the indications that Yuan Benchu had such intentions when Liu Bei was with him? Why would Benchu send his puppet away to Runan twice?

Liu Yu rejected the intended offer long ago before this and Han Fu was already dead. I doubt Benchu would even think about it again.

As it stands, SGZ says Yuan Shao came out 200 miles to welcome Liu Bei. Dian Lue says that both Yuan Shao and his son respected him. That is as clear as it can get, my friend. ;)

Xiao He wrote:
Hmm... Taken a group of refugee to take JiangLing showed that he got no care for their safety. It was after his defeated at DangYang that force him to abandon plan to take JiangLing by force. So much for the regard for the people.


The people were following him I believe. They were the ones who werent caring for their own safety. Liu Bei let them slow him down and didn't run away. Plus what does Jiangling have to do with it?


I didn't say that these people were force to follow him. Liu Bei's target after abandon Xin Ye was to take JiangLing by force. With such a great mass of civilian followed him, you would expected that any benevolent ruler would abandon any military attempts on JiangLing and bring the civilian to safety first. However, Liu Bei never did such thing and his column of civilians and troops were destroyed by Cao Cao. I don't find Liu Bei's action as a benevolent ruler but more of a person who tried to manipulate the civilian support for him to his full advantages.


Bring his civilians to safety? But to where?

Secondly, I have no idea where you get this idea of taking Jiangling by force.

From SGZ-Shu-Liu Bei:

或谓先主曰:“宜速行保江陵,今虽拥大众,被甲者少,若曹公兵至,何以拒之?

Someone said, "Yi Shu Xing Bao Jiang Ling" or defend Jiangling. How is 'defending' Jiangling mean taking it by force?

But I admire your persistence. :lol:

Xiao He wrote:
That is why Liu Bei was the biggest hypocrite in Chinese history. I mean he did already had plan to take YiZhou even before he arrived there. Later he use Sun Quan's request for reinforcement to extort troops and supplied from poor old Liu Zhang. When Liu Zhang only gives him half of what he had demanded, Liu Bei cried betrayal and attacked his own kinsmen. I found no action of righteousness in what you describe up their.


Well if you cant see the forest as well as the trees, then that's you. :lol:


Don't understand what this comments suppose to mean.


Let me correct the statement. I was running late and typed it quickly. I should have said, "You dont see the forest, but only the trees". Hope that makes better sense. :)

It means that if someone betrays once, then that is all one is concerned about. It is like a person who tells one lie, and he is labelled as the biggest liar and most untrustworthy in history. Simply focusing one instance does not generalise the whole person. Liu Bei did betray Liu Zhang. But is it a consistent trend? It would appear not unless I have the usual 'betraying of Cao Cao' claim. To that, I dismiss it simply because Liu Bei was serving the Emperor, not Cao Cao. He was loyal to the Han, not Cao Cao. Thus how does following orders constitute as betrayal? He did not betray Tao Qian. He did not betray Yuan Shao. He did not betray Liu Biao. Thus one bad tree in a forest doesnt mean the forest is all bad. :lol:

Xiao He wrote:
The problem with Pang Tong was that he is just a field strategist, not a great overall strategist like Zhuge Liang (don't be so happy Zhuge Liang's fan, I am not saying that Zhuge Liang was a good military stategist). Pang Tong's strategy might work in giving Liu Bei quick controlled of YiZhou, but how could Liu Bei gained the trust of the people of YiZhou when he so quick to betray his own kinsmen?


How do you know Pang Tong was just a field strategist? Tell me where in SGZ it actually says that.


Pang Tong was mainly used by Liu Bei as a field strategist. It was never mention anywhere in his bio that he gives Liu Bei advise regarding kingdom administration matter. So I felt it was safe to conclude that he was mainly good as a field strategist.


Field strategist? Not a kingdom administrator? You read his bio?

Let's see what Shiyuan says here:

张勃吴录曰:或问统曰:“如所目,陆子为胜乎?”统曰:“驽马虽精,所致一人耳。驽牛一日行三百里,所致岂一人之重哉!”劭就统宿,语,因问:“卿名知人,吾与卿孰愈?”统曰:“陶冶世俗,甄综人物,吾不及卿;论帝王之秘策,揽倚伏之要最,吾似有一日之长。”劭安其言而亲之

There we go. Shiyuan considers himself able in 'lun di wang zhi mi ce'. :)
Xiao He: High Minister of Han Gaozu
Xiao He
Apprentice
 
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