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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:57 pm
by CaTigeReptile
Han wrote:No, thats not my point. My point was, a general was suppose to follow orders in 3k period unless stated otherwise. Without a tiger tally, the appropriate rank or a staff of authority, no general was allowed independent command beyond the original orders.

The trio was ordered to make a first strike against Sun Quan, that I agree and was not a support for their autonomy. However, Zhang Liao follow up at Xiaoyao ford without any of the three things above is what make me believe that he had personal authority shared with the other two. Making him( or them I guess) the CIC. Not Cao Cao who was all the way at HanZhong and did not give orders beyond the initial phase, and definitely not Xue Ti whose job was only to ensure that the generals worked together.


Ok, I mean, I disagree because I interpret the order that Cao Cao gave as being inherently flexible in the way that "if you see an opening that looks safe, go for it" seemed to be, or that pursuing a retreating enemy was also common even if the pursuit was not explicitly commanded, but it literally just seems like we disagree on an interpretation here.

It would be interesting to take a look at the roles that generals/commanders/titles actually played, and the levels of autonomy they had.

Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:59 am
by Han
Its cool. I agree that we disagree on the interpretation. Its just fact that Cao Cao never gave any orders beyond the initial phase. His orders were literally just" When the rebels reach". And then after that the generals argued on what to do after the enemy reach. Then AFTER THAT, they took care of the rest by themselves aka Xiaoyao ford.

Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:15 pm
by CaTigeReptile
wk123 wrote:Just for my own level set, who were other Protector of the Armies for Shu, Wu, Wei, Jin?

Thanks in advance!

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Sorry, didn't see this!

Seems to me there were all sorts of prefixes to Protector of the Army, like front, back, left, right, and center. Also, I'm not sure under what authority pre-kingship Wu and Shu had for appointing these titles.

In no particular order:

for Shu: Fa Zheng, Zhao Yun (center), Fei Yi (center), Wang Ping (front). Not at the same time. I think Liu Bei was too as a vassal of the Han.

Wu: Sun Zhen, Zheng Han, Sun Jiao, Zhou Yu (center), Lu Meng (left), Jiang Qin (right), Zhu Ran (right). It seems to have also been a title you could hold simultaneously with a General's title.

Wei: Cao Hong (center), Sima Wang (center), Wang Ye, Sima Yan, Han Hao, Jiang Ji, Xiahou Shang (center), Xiahou Ru, Jia Kui, Xu Xuan, Qian Zhao, Wu Zhou (who Zhang Liao had a spat with - shocking),

Xiahou Yuan and Cao Zhen held titles called "Protector of the Army who campaigns against Shu." Xiahou Ba held something similar too.


Now, what I'm not sure of is if they were temporary titles for campaigns so there were a bunch all over the place, or if they were offices. I think maybe some were official offices, while each army (or mass of armies) like at Hefei had one.

Jin . . . I'll look for/at the Jinshu later.

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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:22 pm
by Skode
We going by RoTK for this?

WEI

Zhang Liao
Zhang He
Xu Huang
Yu Jin
Xu Chu

Xu Chu was chief go to for duels winning majority of them outright so I'd elevate him to the five. All had magnificent careers under the Cao family and long service.

SHU

Guan Yu
Zhang Fei
Zhao Yun
Huang Zhong
Wei Yan

Guan Yu is insufferably exaggerated in novel and in the authors bias had him contributing to as many kills dead as he was alive... (Hogwash!) But alas it means he has to be up there. Ma Chao did well for Shu but was like the Cao Ren of Shu being chief go to as deterrent for invasion rather than spear heading any himself hence Wei Yan is in over him.

Wu

Huang Gai
Cheng Pu
Han Dang
Gan Ning
Pan Zhang

Hard to separate Ding Feng and Xu Sheng in all honesty as they're always together and both were worthy inclusions but alas included neither. Five chosen were all great servants for Wu anyway.

Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:47 pm
by Sun Fin
No room for my man Taishi Ci, Skode? For the most part I think your choices are pretty solid though!