Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:04 pm

Yes supervised. But the one that planned out the attack from beginning to end was Zhang Liao and friends. The one that carried out the attack was Zhang Liao and friends.

They may not be complete CICs but they had very powerful autonomy soley for that campaign. They listened to no one but themselves to the point of near bickering.
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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:52 pm

Han wrote:Yes supervised. But the one that planned out the attack from beginning to end was Zhang Liao and friends. The one that carried out the attack was Zhang Liao and friends.

They may not be complete CICs but they had very powerful autonomy soley for that campaign. They listened to no one but themselves to the point of near bickering.


Cao Cao planned out the attack. He is the one who decided that Zhang Liao and Li Dian were going to sally, and Yue Jin was going to defend. What the three did to follow those instructions is just what generals do.
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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby Han » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:11 am

Cao Cao did gave his initial orders. But the one who carried out the battles were them. The one who led from beginning to end at Xiaoyao ford were them.
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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:08 pm

Han wrote:Cao Cao did gave his initial orders. But the one who carried out the battles were them. The one who led from beginning to end at Xiaoyao ford were them.


That is literally what generals do and is what could be said about any general of the era during a campaign. That is not equated with autonomy in the sense of being more than what is implied by the rank of general. And Xie Ti ultimately coordinated them.
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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby Han » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:27 am

I cant think of any other general that charged out by themselves without informing their higher ups, unless they had a tiger tally or a staff/sword of authority. The initial charge was excusable because of Cao Cao specific orders, but the Xiaoyao ford in which Zhang Liao quickly capitalise on the situation was not. Cao Cao did not give specific orders past the initial phase of the attack. Zhang Liao rank at that time was ' General Who Defeats Bandits' I dont see whats so special about this particular rank. Xue Ti did not coordinate them other than giving Cao Cao inital orders.
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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby wk123 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:31 am

Han wrote:I cant think of any other general that charged out by themselves without informing their higher ups, unless they had a tiger tally or a staff/sword of authority. The initial charge was excusable because of Cao Cao specific orders, but the Xiaoyao ford in which Zhang Liao quickly capitalise on the situation was not. Cao Cao did not give specific orders past the initial phase of the attack. Zhang Liao rank at that time was ' General Who Defeats Bandits' I dont see whats so special about this particular rank. Xue Ti did not coordinate them other than giving Cao Cao inital orders.
Never heard of Xue Ti. Does he appear in any RTK games, if so what are his stats?

Thanks!

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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby Han » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:26 am

He was the coordinator at that Hefei. In my personal opinion, he was just a coordinator, not a Commander In Chief/Charge. His job as a civillian role was to ensure that the generals carried out their duties appropriately.

I think this is him: http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Xue-Ti
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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:13 pm

Han wrote:I cant think of any other general that charged out by themselves without informing their higher ups, unless they had a tiger tally or a staff/sword of authority. The initial charge was excusable because of Cao Cao specific orders, but the Xiaoyao ford in which Zhang Liao quickly capitalise on the situation was not. Cao Cao did not give specific orders past the initial phase of the attack. Zhang Liao rank at that time was ' General Who Defeats Bandits' I dont see whats so special about this particular rank. Xue Ti did not coordinate them other than giving Cao Cao inital orders.


There you go. The fact that Zhang Liao did not have a tiger tally or staff of authority means he was not in a position of such authority. Zhang Liao decided that the best way for him to follow the instructions that were given to him - perform a pre-emptive attack on Sun Quan - was to sally. Capitalizing on a situation to pursue is perfectly within the range of what a normal general does, so even though he did it by himself or with a small group, there's nothing odd about a pursuit. And if you're going to say it was exceptional, then at worst it was an unauthorized action. Where's the full autonomy over the defense of Hefei, shared with Yue Jin, that you were talking about? A general choosing what tactics he uses and what actions he makes to follow orders is not exceptional autonomy. Like, are we just talking semantics here?

Xue Ti was Protector of the Army, which is a rank associated with coordinating commanders. But I'll admit I might have been overconfident in saying coordination, since the rank might have dealt with commanders within the armies rather than the ones who lead the armies.
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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby wk123 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:12 pm

CaTigeReptile wrote:
Han wrote:I cant think of any other general that charged out by themselves without informing their higher ups, unless they had a tiger tally or a staff/sword of authority. The initial charge was excusable because of Cao Cao specific orders, but the Xiaoyao ford in which Zhang Liao quickly capitalise on the situation was not. Cao Cao did not give specific orders past the initial phase of the attack. Zhang Liao rank at that time was ' General Who Defeats Bandits' I dont see whats so special about this particular rank. Xue Ti did not coordinate them other than giving Cao Cao inital orders.


There you go. The fact that Zhang Liao did not have a tiger tally or staff of authority means he was not in a position of such authority. Zhang Liao decided that the best way for him to follow the instructions that were given to him - perform a pre-emptive attack on Sun Quan - was to sally. Capitalizing on a situation to pursue is perfectly within the range of what a normal general does, so even though he did it by himself or with a small group, there's nothing odd about a pursuit. And if you're going to say it was exceptional, then at worst it was an unauthorized action. Where's the full autonomy over the defense of Hefei, shared with Yue Jin, that you were talking about? A general choosing what tactics he uses and what actions he makes to follow orders is not exceptional autonomy. Like, are we just talking semantics here?

Xue Ti was Protector of the Army, which is a rank associated with coordinating commanders. But I'll admit I might have been overconfident in saying coordination, since the rank might have dealt with commanders within the armies rather than the ones who lead the armies.
Just for my own level set, who were other Protector of the Armies for Shu, Wu, Wei, Jin?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby Han » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:49 am

No, thats not my point. My point was, a general was suppose to follow orders in 3k period unless stated otherwise. Without a tiger tally, the appropriate rank or a staff of authority, no general was allowed independent command beyond the original orders.

The trio was ordered to make a first strike against Sun Quan, that I agree and was not a support for their autonomy. However, Zhang Liao follow up at Xiaoyao ford without any of the three things above is what make me believe that he had personal authority shared with the other two. Making him( or them I guess) the CIC. Not Cao Cao who was all the way at HanZhong and did not give orders beyond the initial phase, and definitely not Xue Ti whose job was only to ensure that the generals worked together.
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