Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:57 pm

Han wrote:No, thats not my point. My point was, a general was suppose to follow orders in 3k period unless stated otherwise. Without a tiger tally, the appropriate rank or a staff of authority, no general was allowed independent command beyond the original orders.

The trio was ordered to make a first strike against Sun Quan, that I agree and was not a support for their autonomy. However, Zhang Liao follow up at Xiaoyao ford without any of the three things above is what make me believe that he had personal authority shared with the other two. Making him( or them I guess) the CIC. Not Cao Cao who was all the way at HanZhong and did not give orders beyond the initial phase, and definitely not Xue Ti whose job was only to ensure that the generals worked together.


Ok, I mean, I disagree because I interpret the order that Cao Cao gave as being inherently flexible in the way that "if you see an opening that looks safe, go for it" seemed to be, or that pursuing a retreating enemy was also common even if the pursuit was not explicitly commanded, but it literally just seems like we disagree on an interpretation here.

It would be interesting to take a look at the roles that generals/commanders/titles actually played, and the levels of autonomy they had.
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 568
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: General who Stabs Evil People

Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:59 am

Its cool. I agree that we disagree on the interpretation. Its just fact that Cao Cao never gave any orders beyond the initial phase. His orders were literally just" When the rebels reach". And then after that the generals argued on what to do after the enemy reach. Then AFTER THAT, they took care of the rest by themselves aka Xiaoyao ford.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Sage
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Your five tiger generals of each kingdom

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:15 pm

wk123 wrote:Just for my own level set, who were other Protector of the Armies for Shu, Wu, Wei, Jin?

Thanks in advance!

Sent from my P027 using Tapatalk



Sorry, didn't see this!

Seems to me there were all sorts of prefixes to Protector of the Army, like front, back, left, right, and center. Also, I'm not sure under what authority pre-kingship Wu and Shu had for appointing these titles.

In no particular order:

for Shu: Fa Zheng, Zhao Yun (center), Fei Yi (center), Wang Ping (front). Not at the same time. I think Liu Bei was too as a vassal of the Han.

Wu: Sun Zhen, Zheng Han, Sun Jiao, Zhou Yu (center), Lu Meng (left), Jiang Qin (right), Zhu Ran (right). It seems to have also been a title you could hold simultaneously with a General's title.

Wei: Cao Hong (center), Sima Wang (center), Wang Ye, Sima Yan, Han Hao, Jiang Ji, Xiahou Shang (center), Xiahou Ru, Jia Kui, Xu Xuan, Qian Zhao, Wu Zhou (who Zhang Liao had a spat with - shocking),

Xiahou Yuan and Cao Zhen held titles called "Protector of the Army who campaigns against Shu." Xiahou Ba held something similar too.


Now, what I'm not sure of is if they were temporary titles for campaigns so there were a bunch all over the place, or if they were offices. I think maybe some were official offices, while each army (or mass of armies) like at Hefei had one.

Jin . . . I'll look for/at the Jinshu later.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 568
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: General who Stabs Evil People

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved