Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:14 am

ZhaoDun wrote:but killing your lord and then taking a good half of your former contries force and starting a new faction instantly at war with the faction you previously swore fealty to, yes that is straight up traitorism. ( I do realize only the initial part was carried out by Sima Yi and his sons finished the job of starting the Jin, but the whole clan gets the mark of a traitor in my opinion)


Hmm Sima Yi didn't killed his lord right? Cao Shuang was a high minister whom Cao Pi giving trust (included Sima Yi)to protect Wei's kingdom.

From the previous topic i have a different opinion about Sima Yi. before this topic was discussed, i see him as a traitor but the real one is his son, Sima Zhao and his grandson, Sima Yan.

so it's not fair to put Sima Zhao and Sima Yan's sins to the whole clan (including Sima Yi). also Sima Fu served former emperor Wei till he died. it's show that not all Sima clans were bad.
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:26 am

It was Cao Rui, not Pi, that appointed Cao Shuang
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby ZhaoDun » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:54 pm

PhoenixRising
so it's not fair to put Sima Zhao and Sima Yan's sins to the whole clan (including Sima Yi). also Sima Fu served former emperor Wei till he died. it's show that not all Sima clans were bad.



People of that time put a lot of stock into ancestor worship and the family line was considered a whole what one does reflects on all, it reflects the discipline and values taught within the family, so yes in a way I do believe the whole clan received a mark for that ultimate treachery, however I do believe on an individual case by case basis both Sima Fu and Sima Lang are giultless and both provided valueable and loyal service while they were employed, but they should still (if they were living or watching from the 9 golden springs or whatever) feel the shame inflicted on the clan by Yi and his children.

I never said ALL Sima clans were shamed, just Sima Yi's clan which would be all of his direct relations, for instance I don't believe that Sima Hui has any relation to Sima Yi, so Sima Hui's clan (which may be distant cousins) would not have any shame cast on their name.
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:12 am

Dong Zhou wrote:It was Cao Rui, not Pi, that appointed Cao Shuang


Ups! sorry :P

ZhaoDun wrote:I never said ALL Sima clans were shamed, just Sima Yi's clan which would be all of his direct relations, for instance I don't believe that Sima Hui has any relation to Sima Yi, so Sima Hui's clan (which may be distant cousins) would not have any shame cast on their name.


oh okay ic ic...direct relations means from Sima Yi to Sima Zhao. from Sima Zhao to Sima Yan, right? :D
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby ZhaoDun » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:27 pm

oh okay ic ic...direct relations means from Sima Yi to Sima Zhao. from Sima Zhao to Sima Yan, right?


pretty much although like I said the shame would also reflect on Sima Yi's brothers who are blameless for the shame as well as all blood relations, his whole family would be shamed for the final act of betrayal based on the beleifs of honor and family connection at the time. However other Sima clans, clans like Sima Hui's that have no blood connection or a blood connection that was long ago sepparated from Sima Yi's clan. Remember Sima although not the most common family name was still a common name and high population of people there were undoubtedly many sepparate sima clans.
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby Zhilong » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:34 pm

Mikhail wrote:
And also, what powers does a ruler get for proclaiming one Emperor that a King does not have prior to the forced abdication of Xian that Liu Bei and Sun Quan apparently needed to call themselves Emperor to fight on "equal ground"


If you aren't the emperor, you're a rebel - no one wants to be an illegitimate leader.:lol: Declaring yourself emperor is an ideological & political move.

To be a legitimate heir to the throne you don't need any merit at all. If you are claiming merit and you are not of the royal clan you are not a legitimate heir in dynastic politics. If you are usurping & founding a new dynasty, merit is just to legitimise your claim, you likely have the power to back up your claim.
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby Hyper90 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:59 pm

*yoink* ! :twisted:


ahem ..

judging from the novel sima yi isnt a traitor , its just DW made him looked like one.
i do agree that sima yi served Wei very well and earned himself high ranks by all his abilities himself.

the traitor part (in Wei perspective) would be the sima brothers (shi and zhao).

they slayed everyone else supporting the cao clan and start aiming for the throne.
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die. " Sima Yi

take a look please
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:14 pm

DW doesn't help but I think the novel/history can play a part.

From what I can recall of the novel, Sima Yi isn't giving a twirl-able moustache but nor does he have a halo. It doesn't so much hammer in "Traitor Traitor" as it does men like Cao Cao, Dong, Lu Bu as in gently points that way by contrast. Sima Yi is provoked by Cao Shuang, following the traditional if slightly weaker (no drugs?) portrayal of Cao Shuang's regime, and is clearly facing a sort-of-baddie. However Sima Yi's rise is foreshadowed and there are sneaking digs, through said foreshadowing, about his loyalty while his great rival Zhuge Liang, despite being provoked by Liu "killer of the dodo's" Shan, never coups anyone. I recall Syima Yi's portrayal being ambiguous but, particularly given games influence and that his sons rise to power, that has tended to mean people put him on the Cao Cao level of loyalty.

Besides, I think what history most of us have (some elements of the SGZ, ZZTJ, not Sima Yi's JS alas) leaves an ambiguous picture anyway. How bad Cao Shuang's regime actually was is open to discussion but that in itself doesn't mean Sima Yi was going for power, could easily have been worried by Shuang's ambition or an idealogical coup. Or any number of reasons, noble or note. The problem is, the word here is could be. We won't ever know the exact reasons for his coup and those things tend to be controversial at the best of times so you need an unblemished record before hand, a clearly evil opponent, not to put your Emperor in danger and to live long enough and in a way that makes it clear your not accumulating power for yourself. Sima Yi risking the Emperor does not put him in too good a light and his death soon-ish after leaving his sons, again whatever the motive, in power is not something that puts him in a clearly clean light.
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby Hyper90 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:08 am

in power is not something that puts him in a clearly clean light.


true.

but im not sure whether is his true intentions to start the coup

OR

he was defending himself from cao shuang. like li yan, (bad example?) he wanted to defend his position/rank so he had to take a coup to take cao shuang down

but im still not sure...
"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die. " Sima Yi

take a look please
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Re: Why do people accuse Sima Yi of being a traitor?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:45 pm

What do people think nowadays? Is Sima Yi a traitor? Was he right to overthrow Cao Shuang? Was he wrong but with good intent?

To widen it out a bit, what do people think of Sima Yi generally nowadays? He doesn't seem as much discussed as other big figures of his time.
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