Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

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Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby XiaoYaoJing » Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:22 pm

Hi all, my first post here.

I just wanted to share my opinion on the frequent Guan Yu vs Zhang Fei debates, and I just wanted to make the case that Zhang Fei is consistently one of the most underrated generals there is and Guan Yu is one of the most overrated generals around.

Tactically, Zhang Fei's series of strategies give him the superiority over Guan Yu. It seems that all Guan Yu ever did in terms of tactics was the drowning of Yu Jin and Pang De. Meanwhile, Zhang Fei has all of the following going for him:
1. zhang fei's ruse at chang ban was the main key to his halting cao cao's legions. his use of the hidden soldiers rising up clouds of dust was what made cao's army halt for fear of an ambush
2. zhang fei's tactical defeat of yan yan in Baxi - faked going around the city while giving yan yan false information to lead yan yan directly into his ambush and captured him alive
3. zhang fei vs zhugeliang - one of the few people who ever managed to surprise zhuge liang by beating him in the competition regarding who will reach Shu first. Zhang Fei bet zhuge liang that he will be able to reach shu first even though he took the land route and had to traverse so many passes, while zhugeliang and zhao yun took the easy water route with no hindrances, and zhang fei got there first thanks to capturing and using yan yan, giving zhugeliang a shock
4. Baxi and Wakou pass battles against Zhang He - completely debunks the common misperception that Zhang Fei was brainless and just a warrior. The series of tactics Zhang Fei pulled off here puts him on a level with tacticians such as Fa Zheng, utterly destroying a much superior army led by Zhang He in a series of ploys including using faking his own drunkenness to trick Zhang He into a three sided ambush
5. that ploy in Xu Zhou to catch that one guy alive (i forget his name. Liu something)


Strength wise, I believe Zhang Fei is also superior, as I believe Guan Yu's accomplishments were vastly overrated.
Duel against Hua Xiong - he cut down hua xiong while hua xiong was trying to ask his name, b4 hua xiong even began to fight
Duel against Lu Bu - Guan Yu joining the fray made no difference. Before he joined, Zhang Fei fought Lu Bu to a draw. After he joined, Zhang Fei fought Lu Bu to a draw still
Duel against Yan Liang - Again, Guan Yu rushed in and cut down Yan Liang b/c he had a fast horse and b4 Yan Liang could even raise his weapon
Duel against Wen Chou - book said that Wen Chou got scared after 10 bouts and ran away, and since Guan Yu was on red hare he just caught up and cut him down
Duel against Huang Zhong - this was a good duel, but IMO huang zhong wasn't incredibly strong either. Huang Zhong only managed to kill an armorless and horseless XiahouYuan on the ground

Meanwhile, who did Zhang Fei duel - Ma Chao for hundreds of bouts, Lu bu to a draw at HuLao Gate. Defeated Lu Bu in a duel 1on1 at XuZhou (granted, Lu Bu was slightly drunk). Defeated Xu Chu in a duel 1on1 at the Han River (although Xu Chu was also drunk)

Guan Yu and Zhang Fei both do have their flaws, with Guan Yu's arrogance and Zhang Fei's love of wine and temper. However, I would say Zhang Fei was superior to Guan Yu both tactically in in terms of battle skill.

What does everyone else think?
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby Shah Muhammad III » Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:27 pm

Zhang Fei wasn't a drunk his only real flaws where his beatings of his soldiers and his temper, and the duelswith hua xiong and lu be never happened, Hua Xiong was executed by Sun Jian and the brothers never fought Lu Bu at Hu Lao. Don't know about Ma Chao or Lu BU for that matter as the novel is not the best source for information due to made up events like above and made up characters like Zhou Cang maybe a few Nanman and Yellow Turbans, oh and welcome.
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby KvChaos » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:16 am

Prejudice against Guan Yu is all that I can see here. =p
You related to Pan Zhang / Lu Meng? :D
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby Phuc » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:44 am

Eh, in history:
- Zhang Fei and Guan Yu never dueled anyone, though I believe Zhang Fei was equal in strength with Lu Bu. Guan Yu didn't kill Hua Xiong and Wen Chou either.
- Guan Yu was arrogant, but the drunk Zhang Fei part was fictional.
- Zhang Fei matured from a butcher into an all-around general, but Guan Yu still used brute strength most of them. I believe Zhang Fei was the smartest of the Tiger Generals.

So I agree with you, Zhang Fei was superior to Guan Yu in every way possible; though I still don't think of him as Shu's best general. A great general doesn't beat his soldiers.
My English isn't very good, so forgive me if there are any grammar/spelling mistakes in my posts.
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby Guan Yan » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:55 am

XiaoYaoJing you seem to be mixing historical with fiction and in the novel Guan Yu would be superior in both feilds as a warrior and general.

Historically Zhang Fei would be a greater general but Guan Yu would definatly defeat Zhang Fei in a fight, Guan Yu had better feats in battle and had more praise then Zhang Fei in that feild.
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby KvChaos » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 am

I'll bet on Zhang Fei in a fair duel.
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby ZhouTai50 » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:10 pm

Zhang Fei is of course the better general by far. Shu's best in my mind. Guan Yu was a below average general at best. As a warrior, I'd probably give it to Zhang Fei. I really find Guan Yu's warrior status overrated. He kills one minor(and incompetent) commander in a raid and suddenly he's the best warrior of the era? Meanwhile Cao Ren did a similar feat against much superior forces at Jiangling twice, to save Niu Jin and then his soldiers, and gets very little recognition for it. :?
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby XiaoYaoJing » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:26 pm

Guan Yan wrote:XiaoYaoJing you seem to be mixing historical with fiction and in the novel Guan Yu would be superior in both feilds as a warrior and general.

Historically Zhang Fei would be a greater general but Guan Yu would definatly defeat Zhang Fei in a fight, Guan Yu had better feats in battle and had more praise then Zhang Fei in that feild.
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby KvChaos » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:28 am

ZhouTai50 wrote:Zhang Fei is of course the better general by far. Shu's best in my mind. Guan Yu was a below average general at best. As a warrior, I'd probably give it to Zhang Fei. I really find Guan Yu's warrior status overrated. He kills one minor(and incompetent) commander in a raid and suddenly he's the best warrior of the era? Meanwhile Cao Ren did a similar feat against much superior forces at Jiangling twice, to save Niu Jin and then his soldiers, and gets very little recognition for it. :?

Who is Lu Bu to you then?
And Guan Yu been below average? ROFL!

Furthermore, been able to only fight very well doesn't make you an "above average" general.
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Re: Zhang Fei >>>>>> Guan Yu

Unread postby char aznable » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:00 am

zhang fei is over all superior to guan yu in almost every aspect. guan yu was not below average but nothing to far from it either his overall accomplishments as a gerneral are not interesting in the slightest yet he did however contribute, he was like a teachers pet, in this case lords favorite.

cao ren however out classes both of these generals with many respectable performances not just "fighting well" but also his defensive battles and achievments in the cao wei state, but lets not sway off topic.
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