Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

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Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Alexei Phoenix » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:05 am

Lu Meng was an accomplished commander and has many deeds credited to his name. He was also the only Wu officer born in Wei territory(Ru Nan). Consider the fact that the alliance between Wu and Shu is broken due to Lu Meng's taking of Jing and the execution of Guan Yu. Jing would give Wu control of the river, returning its greatest natural defence, but wouldn't Wei have the most to gain from this plan? With Wu and Shu sure to tear each other apart, the only one truly winning is Wei.
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:32 pm

Lu Meng simply seems to have been paranoid about Guan Yu and had short term vision, he saw the chance to get Wu a fertile province and a second route against Wei. A Wei spy? His advice ended up with Wei losing most of Jing, helped defend at Ru Xu and took Wan. Doubt Wei was happy over that
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Lu Kang » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:38 pm

It is a common misconception that the alliance was torn apart when Wu invaded Jing. This was not the cause of the split, it was merely the reaction.

Liu Bei had already agreed to plans to take advantage of Wu long before 215 and the first invasion. Liu Bei had already shown himself to be a betrayer, untrustworthy, and someone who had no intention of ever helping Wu. The fact of the matter is a divided southland was more beneficial to Wei than a united one. An alliance between Yang and Jing is not the same thing as a union. For example if Wu was in serious trouble Shu would not be able to mobilize in time. Even if they got word fast enough by the time the message was relayed to Chang Du and brought back, the trouble would have passed or Wu would fall. The same is equally true for if Jing was seriously endangered. It would have to rely on Wu to it's first line of back-up while troops took time to travel from Yizhou. As history will show, two sides with their own interests in mind rarely were able to make significant contributions to defend another's land (technically parts of Jing were Wu's land but Liu Bei decided to forget that fact).

Lu Meng's attack gave Shu and Wu the only chance they had to defend against Wei. A lot of people point to the initial successes of Guan Yu's attack and say, "look what could have happened!" but they ignore the fact that he was defeated by Xu Huang and had he failed Cao Cao was soon to arrive (as was even more reinforcements from Zhang Liao). Shu and Wu could not merely force their way north but would have to wait for the opportunity to present itself.
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Zhilong » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:23 pm

Lu Meng's actions were definitely short sighted but in part also necessary for wu's defensive posture. Wu was fortunate in that Sun Quan & Lu Xun were able to clean up the mess and that Liu Bei was so crap! This meant that the hostilities between the two states did not last very long at all which is the best situation for Wu - gain land and suffer only a small break time in the alliance. Long term hostilities between Shu & Wu would only benefit Wei.

Was Zhang Zhao not also from Wei territory? I don't think place of birth had anything to do with Lu Meng's motivations.

Imo Lu Su & Lu Xun were the long term strategic thinkers.
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Sun Gongli » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:48 pm

Alexei Phoenix wrote:Lu Meng was an accomplished commander and has many deeds credited to his name. He was also the only Wu officer born in Wei territory(Ru Nan). Consider the fact that the alliance between Wu and Shu is broken due to Lu Meng's taking of Jing and the execution of Guan Yu. Jing would give Wu control of the river, returning its greatest natural defence, but wouldn't Wei have the most to gain from this plan? With Wu and Shu sure to tear each other apart, the only one truly winning is Wei.


Considering what short work Lu Meng made of Wei's Huan castle, I find it laughable that anyone would even consider him a Wei agent.
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:26 am

I agree with Sun Gongli but I have to say when I saw the title I laughed so heavily as I've been saying for a long time it was Lu Meng's short sighteness that caused the fall of Wu.
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Guest » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:43 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I agree with Sun Gongli but I have to say when I saw the title I laughed so heavily as I've been saying for a long time it was Lu Meng's short sighteness that caused the fall of Wu.



It is funny to say that ...
How did Wu fall because of Lu Meng ?
His plans were perfect and complete ...
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:44 pm

It destroyed any chance Wu had of conquering China. Once Liu Bei had Yi, it was vital to cooperate but instead, Wu robbed the alliance of momentum, created an attitude of distrust that never really cleared up and left both sides committing vital soldiers to be border guards against each other. There was never a chance as golden to defeat Wei as the one Wu ignored
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:59 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:It destroyed any chance Wu had of conquering China. Once Liu Bei had Yi, it was vital to cooperate but instead, Wu robbed the alliance of momentum, created an attitude of distrust that never really cleared up and left both sides committing vital soldiers to be border guards against each other. There was never a chance as golden to defeat Wei as the one Wu ignored


I disagree. Wu never had a chance to conquer China. The terrain being one of the major reasons. Wu did not create an attitude of distrust, it was already there well before the betrayal. The mistrust was just as much Liu Bei and Guan Yu's doing as it was Wu's. The betrayal may have been more to do with ensuring Wu's survival than simply greed or short-sightedness. Shu was devasted by the betrayal but Wu was strengthened. Sun Quan may have made the right decision.
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Re: Lu Meng, hero of Wu? Or Wei's greatest insider.

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:42 pm

They had a slim chance and they were being presented with a good opportunity to make a grab at Wei however the way to conquer the land is not to destroy what momentum the alliance has and start a war between Shu and Wu.

Before 219, ok the alliance was far from fine and there was an element of wariness but it was working well enough, Lu Su had sorted out the Jing problem and Wei had been pushed out of Hanzhong, Wan and parts of Jing. After 219, both strengthened the borders between Wu and Shu when they should have been triple attacking Wei again
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