Zhang He

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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:36 am

I think we should respect everyone! :wink:

I agree with you that if there's some kind of fairyisation I think that's pretty stupid.

Probably as stupid as the other myths that have sprung up though- like Diao Chan (who never really existed..)
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:42 am

I think that the historical Zhang He was an excellent general and the best in Wei. Zhang Liao gets a lot of admiration simply because of his performance at He Fei. Zhang Liao was brave and an impressive warrior but i believe that Zhang He showed a greater range of abilities throughout his career. Zhang He showed the valour and might of a vanguard general when he defeated Ma Chao for instance. However, he also showed impressive intellect on many occasions and his skills were feared by both Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang. This was because he was a very well-rounded general with no exploitable weaknesses. Vanguard generals get most of the glory, but it was three-dimensional men like Zhang He were the best generals, men who could be counted on for almost any duty. Zhang He of Wei, Lu Meng of Wu, Zhao Yun of Shu, these generals are the ones i respect the most.
Last edited by Elitemsh on Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
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Unread postby Guan Yan » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:45 am

Are you saying that Zhang He is a better fighter then Zhang Liao :shock: He was a good van guard but was not as famed as others.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:58 am

I think anyone who can advise Guo Tu that Yuan Shao should send reinforcement to Chunyu Qiong (which I think is the correct move), while at the battle of Guan Du and effectively be proven right, and who can also fight as a vanguard general is pretty darn good TBH.
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Unread postby Guan Yan » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:01 pm

Yeah but how would you compare him to Zhang Liao in fighting ability.
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Unread postby Phuc » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:02 pm

Guan Yan wrote:Yeah but how would you compare him to Zhang Liao in fighting ability.


In the novel, he had a 50-bout duel with Zhang Liao and neither gained advantage. I'm not sure about history though.

Well, I guess I got owned :roll: I should have read Zhang He's SGZ biography before creating this topic.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.
My English isn't very good, so forgive me if there are any grammar/spelling mistakes in my posts.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:22 pm

:lol: That's not really the idea.. I was just pointing out his abilities and various battles which he had involvement in and did well in. Which are numerous!

Guan Yan.

I dont think ANY of us can confidently compare these generals.. Zhang Liao did some amazing things as a general, as did Zhang He, BUT they never had a battle together historically, neither did they duel, or even test each other in weight training.

So what matters is who had more victories and how they were won. Probably the only true comparison is weather or not one of them got beaten by a general and the other was victorious against the same general?
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Unread postby Guan Yan » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:59 am

but you dont really have to see them fight each other to know you can look at accoplishments in fighting men and warrior, and fame, praise which officer had the most positivity about ones skill, in some cases they are said to be better then a certain person and men. Example if you were in a running race and got 100 metres in 2 minutes and someone else gets it in 1minute and 30 seconds which would be better, also fighters like huo yuan jia if said to be the best by important figures they must be positive in their skill right.
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:02 pm

Guan Yan wrote:but you dont really have to see them fight each other to know you can look at accoplishments in fighting men and warrior, and fame, praise which officer had the most positivity about ones skill, in some cases they are said to be better then a certain person and men. Example if you were in a running race and got 100 metres in 2 minutes and someone else gets it in 1minute and 30 seconds which would be better, also fighters like huo yuan jia if said to be the best by important figures they must be positive in their skill right.


Praise is hardly an indicator of real skill. In this time, there's a lot of praise going around, be it for officers who actually accomplished something, or officers who were expected to accomplish something. Because of the sheer amount of of praise going around, it's nearly impossible to use that as a source to indicate one's fighting ability/ability in general.

Example: Yu Jin was praised when he controlled his troops in a fashion that Cao Cao's other officers didn't. Throughout his accomplishments he makes the right decisions, and recieves more praise. Then he surrenders when he has no other options, and he recieves anti-praise. Are to believe the anti-praise, or just the praise?

Li Yan, on the other hand, recieved great praise by Zhuge Liang, who compared him to Lu Xun of Wu. Problem is, once he had to do a job, he folded. Are we to still believe Zhuge Liang's praise?

Praise has such an intentionally independant nature that it only applies to those accomplishments, or those moments. In no way can we take praise as a real measure of a man's skill.
"Because he has died, there is no more room for death in him." -- Lao Tzu
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Unread postby Guan Yan » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:00 pm

Another example to help: If some really famous generals saw someone fight and compared him to other fighters on the battle feild and was amazed by their skill and more people praise and remark their skill more then another what other reason can it be but that person with so much praise would be better then the other person. So praise is a good indicater of who is a really good fighter, and accoplishments as well, but you may fight really well in battle and still lose so because they do not have a death toll on many warriors praise is a good way to find out and if your skill is tolled on kills then that speaks for itself.
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