On Sima Yi and traitorness

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Marx!_II » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:20 am

While treachery may be the word to use, I think it's arguable in the sense that what he did may or may not have been for the greater good of Wei. I think it is from what I read, if Cao Shuang takes two days(or so)to decide if he wants to try and stop an attempted coup or not, I say he's got no place in the emperor's throne.
User avatar
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 7:45 am
Location: About Seattle

Unread postby Xiahou Mengde88 » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:41 am

Even if Sima Yi was a traitor to the Cao's, they were traitors before he was, bringing him to betray them.

You could kind of compare the Cao Shuang/Cao Fang situation to that of Lu Bu's situation; Lu Bu turned on (Dong and Ding), then he was betrayed.

So, Cao Shuang got Sima's power taken away, so Sima Yi took away his life, and got back his power. And while he was at it, he couldn't be completely sure that Cao Fang wasn't in on it, or might do the same thing, too, (maybe the young Cao's had a vendetta against me?, he might have thought), so he took him down a peg, or two; You don't betray people and get away with it....unless you were betrayed first, and just betrayed the betray-ers.
Charlie Murphy: "Prince, you got any towels; It's hot out here!"
Dave Chappelle (as Prince): "Well, why don't you purify yourself in the waters..of Lake Minitanka?"
User avatar
Xiahou Mengde88
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Wherever you aren't, that's for sure...

Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:39 pm

I think Sima Yi remained loyal to Wei dynasty.
But as a human being, he had to secure his personal safety and the safety of his family. (he had too many political enemies, and they were quite fatal that Sima had to execute them)
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:44 am

Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:26 pm

Sima was loyal to Wei, but others made it seem he was less loyal. I think it was Simas son more than anyone who were the traitors.
Oh my my, oh hell yes, your gettin buried in your party dress.
Separation Anxiety
Scholar of Shen Zhou
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: The search party never came...

Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:36 pm

I have the same view as yours, and I think Sima's sons were grown up under an uneasy political envirnorment (seeing how ppl harm their father, & how their father kills the others) which led their hegemonic attutide toward the others. (grab the power and your life is secured, this may be what they learned from their father's experience)
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:44 am

Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:31 am

A question after reading the last few posts: Is the betrayal (usurpation) of the Sima's inevitable? If he had no choice but to protect his own personal security, and this protection necessitates the demise of his political enemies, which in turn solidifies his monopoly on power -- then it means that the Cao's were destined to be screwed and the Sima's destined to power?

How similar a situation was this compared to Cao Cao's situation?
"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8
User avatar
Lady Wu
There's no better state than Wu
There's no better state than Wu
Posts: 12840
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am
Location: Wu-ere else?

Unread postby LING_TONG ^0^ » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:19 am

I think Cao Cao openly oppressed the Han Emperor, and he forced him to give him the title of "king." Even Xu Yu disagreed on his tyrannic behaviors, why wouldn't I think the same?

But if you check on Sima Yi's records, you will find him humble when facing his master. I find some quotes on this:
二 月 , 天 子 以 帝 為 丞 相 , 增 封 潁 川 之 繁 昌 、 鄢 陵、 新 汲 、 父 城 , 并 前 八 縣 , 邑 二 萬 戶 , 奏 事 不 名 。 固 讓丞 相 。

    冬 十 二 月 , 加 九 錫 之 禮 , 朝 會 不 拜 。 固 讓 九 錫 。

I think the quote above have proved Sima was really determine to return the title and treasure to the Wei emperor. (in contrast, Cao did a politic show which he pretented not to welcome the titles and tresaures from the Han emperor at first, while "accepting" them all at the end.)

His title of PM was given by the Wei emperor after his death:
秋八 月 戊 寅 , 崩 於 京 師 , 時 年 七 十 三 。 天 子 素 服 臨 弔 , 喪葬 威 儀 依 漢 霍 光 故 事 , 追 贈 相 國 、 郡 公 。 弟 孚 表 陳 先 志, 辭 郡 公 及 轀 輬 車 。

I think what really in Sima Yi's mind after so many unhappy experience might be:
帝 歎 息 , 悵 然 有 感 , 為 歌 曰 : 「 天 地 開 闢 , 日 月 重 光。 遭 遇 際 會 , 畢 力 遐 方 。 將 掃 群 穢 , 還 過 故 鄉 。 肅 清 萬里 , 總 齊 八 荒 。 告 成 歸 老 , 待 罪 舞 陽 。 」
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:44 am

Unread postby Zhilong » Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:12 pm

Suppose Sima Yi was loyal and he is only trying to remove Cao Shuang who was not acting loyal but being arrogant and building up his own base.

When Sima Yi takes control of the capital while Cao Shuang is out hunting with the Emperor and demands the military seals: where was his concern for the Emperor's safety? Is this how a loyal minister acts? As a regent appointed by his former lord, how could he possibly face him after he dies?
"You weaver of mats! You plaiter of straw shoes! You have been smart enough to get possession of a large region and elbow your way into the ranks of the nobles. I was just going to attack you, and now you dare to scheme against me! How I detest you!"
Scholar of Shen Zhou
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:22 am
Location: Shang Fong Valley with petrol bombs waiting for yours truly.


Unread postby Da_Chicago_Jigalo » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:18 am

37th Post!

Sima Yi had a great loyalty for the Wei empires, and in many cases it is said that he is the one who led the rebellion. He may have made the foundation for it by putting the Sima family in power, but is the not the same as what Cao Cao did.
User avatar
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:04 pm
Location: At your front door asking for a glass of water.

Unread postby Emperor Zhuge Liang » Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:00 pm

Sima Yi was loyal and served Wei until his death. It was his sons who seized power from the Cao family
"As long as my dream comes to fruition I can sacrifice a capital city, or two, or three"
Dong Zhou DW4
Emperor Zhuge Liang
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:14 am
Location: Cramlington,England


Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved